Dwarves vs Elves

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

What do we know of Azaghal? Not very much I'm afraid, the only thing that we can judge him by is by his final moments and that is not anything to go on. If we judged Thingol in his final moments we would indeed think him a fool, or at least I would.

You missed my point entirely, I am not judging Azaghal in regards to his brave last stand; however, I do question the Dwarves under his command who cared more for taking his body off the field and retiring from battle than finishing the fight (and avenging their Lord, which has a precedent elsewhere in Dwarvish history).

As far as Thingol, he was rude and brash and behaved like any absolute monarch (which is not usually a good thing), but the Dwarves had already decided to steal the Silmaril and Thingol divined their purpose. Killing a king was long considered reprehensible even among kingdoms who were at war with each other (Tolkien, seemingly an avid monarchist, would most likely be appalled by such an act of lese-majesty). A truly sly King would have seemed to acquiesce; but as soon as he was able, call his guards and slaughter each and every Dwarf without mercy. It doesn't really matter, it would have led to war in any case.

[Andsigil]

Look. Let's face it: elves may be good fighters, powerful sorcerers, and wise loremasters, but, at the heart, they're still prissy, metrosexual nancy-boys. Dwarves may be short, but they're hirsute, direct, and manly. That makes them better.

(runs and ducks for cover)

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

Look. Let's face it: elves may be good fighters, powerful sorcerers, and wise loremasters, but, at the heart, they're still prissy, metrosexual nancy-boys. Dwarves may be short, but they're hirsute, direct, and manly. That makes them better.

(runs and ducks for cover)

Ummm...wow.

*Considers Andsigil's rather bellicose statements*

Hmmm...I don't see how one can consider Dwarves 'manly' (a contradiction in any case), because they have virtually no females (and evidently no interest in them if they had some) -- poor Dis being the one and only Smurfette mentioned among the Smurfish Dwarves (well, they did come from the Blue Mountains, didn't they?). Unless, of course, you mean manly in the sense of The Village People:

Young dwarf, there's no need to feel down
I said, young dwarf, cos' you live underground
I said, young dwarf, pile your gold into mounds
There's no need to see sunlight

Young dwarf, why don't you leave Erebor
I said, young dwarf, go to Hollin's Door
I said, young dwarf, take your axe off to war
There's some Orcs to be-head

It's fun to stay down in M-O-R-I-A
It's fun to stay down in M-O-R-I-A

You can mine for mithril and make marvelous toys
You can hang out with all the boys

It's fun to stay down in M-O-R-I-A
It's fun to stay down in M-O-R-I-A

You can stuff yourself like a drunken hog
Just don't you wake up the Balrog...etc.

[Andsigil]

What are you talking about? Is this hot, or what?



As for the manliness of the elves, let's read the secret diary of Legolas:

Day One:

Went to Council of Elrond. Was prettiest person there. Agreed to follow some tiny little man to Mordor to throw ring into volcano. Very important mission - gold ring so tacky.

Day Four:

Boromir so irritating. Why must he wear big shield like dinner plate all the time? Climbed up Caradhras but wimpy humans who cannot walk on snow insisted we climb back down.

Am definitely prettiest member of the Fellowship. Go me!

Day Six:

Far too dark in Mines of Moria to brush hair properly. Am very afraid I am developing a tangle.

Orcs so silly.

Still the prettiest.

Day Ten:

Gandalf fell into shadow. In other news, I think I am developing a spot on my nose. V. serious situation, as Elven spots likely to last for 500 years or more.

Still prettiest, despite blasted spot.

Day Eleven:

In Lothlorien. Suspect Galadriel may be prettier than me.

Also, am quite sure she copied my hairstyle. I was wearing that same look at least 1,000 years ago. Silly bint. She was most annoyed that I used her mirrored fountain to take a nice bubble bath.

I choose to ignore her claim that my hair clogged her drain. Not one strand of my hair has fallen out in 800 years, why would it start now?

Still prettiest by far.

Day 30:

All this paddling about in boats is hell on my complexion.

Aragorn obviously starting to find Frodo strangely attractive. Sam will kill him if he tries anything.

Still the prettiest.

Day 33:

Boromir tempted by Ring. So tedious. Cannot be tempted myself, as already have everything I want i.e. perfect hair and a butt like granite.

Have been getting very strange letters from someone calling herself "Stacey" who wants to do obscene things to my elfhood. Fortunately have super-duper elf vision so can run away if I see her coming.

Day 35:

Boromir dead. Very messy death, most uncessesary. Did get kissed by Aragorn as he expired. Does a guy have to get shot full of arrows around here to get any action? Boromir definitely not prettier than me. Cannot understand it. Am feeling a pout coming on.

Frodo off to Mordor with Sam. Tiny little men caring about each other, rather cute really.

Am quite sure Gimli fancies me. So unfair. He is waist height, so can see advantages there, but chunky braids and big helmet most offputting. Forsee dark times ahead, very dark times.

[Groin Redbeard]

OK, everyone's beginning to act screwy!

Originally Posted by Morthoron

You missed my point entirely, I am not judging Azaghal in regards to his brave last stand; however, I do question the Dwarves under his command who cared more for taking his body off the field and retiring from battle than finishing the fight (and avenging their Lord, which has a precedent elsewhere in Dwarvish history).

Good point here, but vengeance can be dealt out in more ways than one. My theory would be that the anger of the Dwarves was so great that it could not be directed at just the Orcs, actually I think it would be more out of love for Azagha but I'll let you decide. It was the Elves who led them to this battle and in the end they are blaming the Elves for something they couldn't prevent, therefore the best way to avenge their king is to leave the Elves to their own fate. A rather rash decision on their part but logic almost never prevails when you are overcome with grief.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

As far as Thingol, he was rude and brash and behaved like any absolute monarch (which is not usually a good thing), but the Dwarves had already decided to steal the Silmaril and Thingol divined their purpose. Killing a king was long considered reprehensible even among kingdoms who were at war with each other (Tolkien, seemingly an avid monarchist, would most likely be appalled by such an act of lese-majesty). A truly sly King would have seemed to acquiesce; but as soon as he was able, call his guards and slaughter each and every Dwarf without mercy. It doesn't really matter, it would have led to war in any case.

True it would eventually have led to war, but both parties were in the wrong. You forget that it was Thingol who lusted to the necklace of the Naugrim as well as the Silmaril.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

OK, everyone's beginning to act screwy! .

Well, considering this subject has the philosophical propensities of a box of hair, I rather enjoy the screwiness to the actual discussion.

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

True it would eventually have led to war, but both parties were in the wrong. You forget that it was Thingol who lusted to the necklace of the Naugrim as well as the Silmaril.

He did not lust after the Nauglimir, he owned it. It was the Dwarves who made the fallacious claim that since it was given to Finrod by the Dwarves and then brought to Thingol by Hurin from the wreck of Nargothrond, that they somehow had a right to it after having given away of their own free will (a classic instance of 'Indian-givers', if you'll pardon the racial pejorative). The Dwarves had no claim to it, particularly since the Silmaril was now part of it (you'll notice they never mentioned the Silmaril, but it was obviously the reason they coveted it).

Yes, the Dwarves murdered Thingol because they were intent on stealing the Silmaril. From a strictly legal sense, they would have been convicted of grand theft and murder. The case of O.J. Simpson comes to mind. If you recall, O.J. was tried and convicted of trying to steal his own memorabilia which was no longer his property.