Tol-in-Gaurhoth LI: The Pain of Wargs

[Kath]

Kitanna:

Popped in with a quick hello.

Lommy mentions automatic suspicion of anyone who just pops in with said quick hello. I understand that (and hey, liking me being the exception to the rule ), and she was summarising the grand total of 15 odd posts.

Kitanna says can't get much out of Lommy because she's suspicious of everyone, and that while Legate is being helpful she thinks he is too bogged down in analysis of the narration. Nevertheless she thinks them both pretty innocent. Wonders if Samwise, Gwath and Gaunt were simply bandwaggoning.

Gwath (I think jokingly) complains about Kitanna not appreciating his originality.

Kitanna sort of () apologises to Gwath but reiterates her point - and it was a fair one.

Nog says Kitanna's first post worries him as it's a 'here I am' one. Basically repeats her next post adding no information on why the mention of Lommy worries him. Says he didn't get why Legate would be the one to crack the narration when everyone else has looked at it too, despite the fact that Kitanna was clearly of the opinion that Legate pretty much started the analysis and the others followed on and that Legate had tried the hardest. This may not be correct but it was where she was coming from.

Kitanna explains herself to Nogrod.

Kitanna and Rune get into a bit of a muddle with Kitanna thinking Rune is questioning Lommy when in fact he's poking Nogrod.

Legate questions the 'fodder' comment about Lommy - good questions actually.

Samwise lists her as innocent.

Explains her Lommy stuff to Legate. The explanation is pretty odd really.

Which Legate then picks up on. Forms some options for the oddness, doesn't jump straight to assuming she's a wolf for it which speaks of restraint on his part. Careful wolf? Especially as he then completely clears her. I wonder if he thought the comment was a Seer-hint? Could be a nice double bluff if so.

Lommy says Kitanna is the only one who has really been suspected which really isn't the case when you look at how people were treating Samwise. As well as that Lommy herself had been under some suspicion. It's just an odd thing to say it when it clearly wasn't the case. Says she'd rather Kitanna stayed alive - covering her bases because she planned to kill her that Night?

Kitanna states her worries about Samwise's vote and disagrees with Legate about it having been a safe one. Also questions Gollum about why Lommy is suspicious.

Nogrod says Kitanna feels innocent but leaves himself something of an out relating to the one post of hers he didn't like.

Kitanna clears Samwise from her voting possibilities with good reason and continues to argue with Nogrod. Also says she's likely to random vote - quite possible that thanks to her having left herself with no suspicions and then voting randomly she signed her own death warrant.

Votes me out of a hat.

Ok, I'm thinking it's probable that out of whatever list the wolves had of possible kills last Night Kitanna would definitely have been on it due to her unfortunate tying up of loose ends in her penultimate post. However, I think Lommy's behaviour toward Kitanna was somewhat suspicious. The way Legate acted makes him seem more innocent to me, he was arguing solidly with good reasoning. Nog is being very 'oh it could be this but then' which I'm not sure is like him, and he seems to be misunderstanding a lot of things this game. Could be a tactic.

I have to go eat now because my stomach has been complaining all through this post! I will return to look at toDay in the light of yesterDay and to vote.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Kath

Nog says Kitanna's first post worries him as it's a 'here I am' one. Basically repeats her next post adding no information on why the mention of Lommy worries him.

Legate questions the 'fodder' comment about Lommy - good questions actually.

Are we reading the same thread Kath? In the thread I have before my eyes I ask Kit about that "fodder" -thingy about Lommy and Kit answers my question about it. Only after that Legate makes his comment about it, starting it with "When I saw this, I wanted to ask you about it, and even though Nogrod did too and you answered"...

Also the way you let us understand that Kit suddenly realised Sam was a gifted and shut her mouth (but Nogrod went on lynching him because of that) has just plain malice in it. Who of you really thought Sam was a gifted, hand on your heart, yesterDay?

Originally Posted by Kath

Kitanna clears Samwise from her voting possibilities with good reason and continues to argue with Nogrod.

That was no arguing, she explained her post as I had asked for an explanation. Look at it.

Nog is being very 'oh it could be this but then' which I'm not sure is like him, and he seems to be misunderstanding a lot of things this game. Could be a tactic.

Kath misunderstanding people - could be a tactic
Kath misquoting the thread - could be a tactic
Kath misinterpreting people - could be a tactic
Kath choosing which things to quote - could be a tactic.

Wonderful arguments, aren't they?

Although I'd like to hear where I have misunderstood something? Even more so if you think that has been tactical...

Oh my, yet again a host of posts done while I've been fact-checking...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Heya, folks. Not sure if I'm gonna be able to post before the DL (I am posting from my RPG-friends'), but I will try to at least read the thread and maybe vote - according to my thoughts before. Haven't read the thread yet since my last post, just letting you know, so that you know (I may also not vote at all, in the worst case).

[Kath]

Woah Nogrod, no. I wasn't saying that you thought Samwise was Gifted and therefore kept going after him, simply that Kitanna may have figured it out and backed off. I never thought that you'd worked it out.

I will go back and look at the 'fodder' thing. I may well have got names muddled actually as I thought it seemed odd that Legate would mention the same comment twice. If you're right on that then I apologise and my opinions switch. You look more innocent, Legate more suspicious.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Hmm, I don't want to risk it and would rather vote now. I WILL be at the Downs, but it may be in about an hour or even more (hour and fifteen minutes, hour and half), and that may not be sufficient even for Eomer's benevolent DL.
Anyway, I haven't really READ the thread, merely skimmed through it, and I did not see anything too special that would catch my eye, although a few things maybe did, but I couldn't look into them deeper. Anyway - from all people, I am now thinking about voting Brinn, I would merely second what I said before: even though she seems posting more today than before, she is too unconflicting, too "nice" in the way that non-attention-bringing, you know the stuff...

And

Originally Posted by Brinniel

Hey, I've made it past Day 3 and have been innocent before. Of course I usually wind up being a misguided ordo who suspects all the wrong people...so maybe you should just lynch me.

I was of course not taking this seriously, but anyway, why are you saying this? This is silly, and it fits this un-conflict-y pattern of you too - it's that you so un-problematically accept the pattern that is outlined here for you (i.e. in this case, somebody says you are suspicious, and you in fact are nodding to him and unconflictingly accept his proposal, so to say).

Therefore

++Brinniel

EDIT: x-ed since my last post

And one word to Nogrod: Oh my, but sure you are not being THAT serious... (okay, that was 10 words (originally just two))

[Nogrod]

We seem to be going as mad as yesterDay...

Rune -> Mith
Brinn -> Groin
Gollum -> Nogrod
Di -> Brinn
Groin -> Lommy
Mith -> Legate

Six votes, six candidates!

Not good!


Whomever Gollum would have voted I'm somewhat ready to vote him out just because of that attitude:

Crud, gotta go! No explanation for my vote!

Had he been the most vocal before that one it would be different but that's basically all he has offered us two Days now.

I mean we're sharing a game here and the game consists of people actually playing the game. And if someone wishes to test the limits of the game we should as the players of that game make them clear.

But I hope I have better ideas before the end.

Groin's sudden change of mind kind of makes me wonder... And Kath's seemingly intentional misrepresentations also raise an eyebrow.

And I have not forgotten my theory of lovers added in three Nights in a row when the first pair is Lommy and Legate but of the second one I have no clue as yet. Maybe it's only after them (three pairs) the real villain will be introduced - something like a werebear kind of creature who wins alone or with the remaining lover-pairs.

Remember, in pairs they come...


EDIT: X'd with a few and corrected the tally after Mith's vote

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Kath

Lommy says Kitanna is the only one who has really been suspected which really isn't the case when you look at how people were treating Samwise. As well as that Lommy herself had been under some suspicion. It's just an odd thing to say it when it clearly wasn't the case. Says she'd rather Kitanna stayed alive - covering her bases because she planned to kill her that Night?

(Oh, of course. Looks like I skipped that post in my summary. I'm not used to reading ww thread so that I don't skip my own posts.) What I said about Kit was just how I saw the situation. Too bad if it was faulty. (I'm not even sure if it was, but I don't think it's a thing that merits checking.) But really, why would I intentionally mis-state something if I was a wolf? The odds of getting caught are pretty high and the profits are small.

I don't really know what to think of Groin's sudden change of opinion. Seems rather fishy, if you ask me. I mean, he stops suspecting Nogrod because other people don't? Huh? And then he starts suspecting me with rather questionable grounds. I appreciate he reasons his sayings but I don't agree with what he says about me. I know I don't (didn't ) really suspect anyone, but that just sometimes happens. And I think it's a bad reason to suspect someone who's critical. Being uncritical is far more questionable, if you ask me. Groin seems also a bit too easily charmed by helpfulness: it doesn't even look like it's his honest reaction to "helpful posting" but like using the argument as a means of exonerating a few people easily. (Could be even exonerating fellow wolves, who knows.) I didn't suspect Groin at all before this, I think people were misundertasning his campaign against Nogrod, but with a few post Groin managed to make it to my top suspect. Great.


edit: xed with Legate and Kath

[Thinlómien]

Ok, I don't know if I will be here until the deadline, it's rather late and I have still some school stuff to do before I got to sleep (or then I have to wake up earlier tomorrow because of them). Well, we'll see how this goes...

Now, a little summary-ish.

Innocentish
Gaunt - speaks in a way a wolf just wouldn't.
Rune - I get a good feel from his posts. He mostly makes sense and seems innocent.

Slightly innocentish
Nogrod - seems innocently reasonable and jokes like innocent Nogrod usually does. Also has the agrressive edge a wolf-Nogrod often lacks. But he's very good at bluffing, so I'm very far from certain...

Middle
Legate - I find it hard to say anything about him. There's nothing to make me alarmed, but I know he can cheat a whole village (like someone said) and he does have any "aura of innocence" either. I think I need to keep an eye on him.
Shasta - I don't feel I have enough data to go on.
Mith - has some valid points and a generally slightly innocentishly feel, but is fishily single-minded (doesn't talk about other people than me very much).
Diamond - well, really, what can you say? I hope she will have more time in future...
Gwath - sleeps under my reindeer, really. I have a vague recollection he has made me uneasy in this game, but I don't remember why. Maybe I should go through his posts and check. He lacks the jumpiness of the wolf-Gwaths I've known, though.

Slightly suspicious
Kath - this is a gut-feeling thing. She just seems fishy, somehow, her tone seems insincere.
Brinniel - seems a little jumpy and some things she says just don't make much sense.
Gollum - I have hard time trying to decide whether he's so fishy because he's a newbie, or because he's a wolf. He doesn't seem to give much reasons for his opinions and goes with the flow.

Suspicious
Groin - see my previous post.


edit: xed with Mith, Noggie and Leggie

[Thinlómien]

Hmmm... now that was some good points against Legate and Brinn. I know they've been stated before but now they started to make more sense. I need to think about these things...

Originally Posted by Nogrod

And I have not forgotten my theory of lovers added in three Nights in a row when the first pair is Lommy and Legate but of the second one I have no clue as yet.

Are you just continuing the joke, or are you seriously suggesting that we're lovers?

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Are you just continuing the joke, or are you seriously suggesting that we're lovers?

Funny you should both be so interested in this question... I have already been Dr. Love in WW for Rikae and Mac so why not...

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Mith - has some valid points and a generally slightly innocentishly feel, but is fishily single-minded (doesn't talk about other people than me very much).
[

Ooh wish I could change my vote .. you have played with me long enough to know that singlemindedness is fairly characteristic.... I often get hung up on one player but when I am evil I try to spread the suspicion.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

I don't really know what to think of Groin's sudden change of opinion. Seems rather fishy, if you ask me. I mean, he stops suspecting Nogrod because other people don't? Huh?

Add to this the way he ended his second "lynch Nogrod" post toDay with his theory that I was covering Lommy or Legate as my packmate from the fearsome attack of Gollum the Great :

I my view this sounds very wolfish. I'll wait to see what y'all say.

My only problem with this interpretation is that he might actually be like that... Not too self-confident and wishing for the confirmation of others - and ready to back away if seeing he's challenged.

In that case we lose one innocent if we lynch him.

Btw. if you ask me why I keep on bringing up that lover-idea I'm just wishing you to remember that is a possibility when I'm not around reminding you about it. four or six baddies in a village of 15 is just too much, even if they foght each other as well. But three pairs of lovers with an extra baddie might limit a believable scenario.

I'll have to check that narration for toDay once more to see if there is any sense in this...

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

My only problem with this interpretation is that he might actually be like that... Not too self-confident and wishing for the confirmation of others - and ready to back away if seeing he's challenged.

He has been asking advice from others as an innocent before, so I wouldn't use it as an argument against him. But it doesn't change the fact that other stuff he has done is rather fishy.

(Sorry for the over-using of the word "fishy" by the way. I just can't think of a better one and I've been thinking about fish quite a lot today for various reasons. )


edit: xed with Mith and Nog

[Kath]

Hmm, so I did go back and look and Nog was right so my suspicions have switched there. Now I am going to have to disappear so I'll vote.

++LEGATE

For the reasons I previously had against Nog!

[Gwathagor]

Hi everyone. I'm here.

Time to read.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Mith

Ooh wish I could change my vote .. you have played with me long enough to know that singlemindedness is fairly characteristic.... I often get hung up on one player but when I am evil I try to spread the suspicion.

I know, but not this much, I think. Or okay, yes you have - when you were cobbler last time we played together. (Or then I just remember/pay attention to it all the times I've been the victim of it... *does not know whether rolleyes or wink would be more fitting*)

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Funny you should both be so interested in this question... I have already been Dr. Love in WW for Rikae and Mac so why not...

I think it's natural to want to know whether someone really suspects you or is just having fun at your expense. Besides, I don't need any love-doctoring, and especially not on the part of my father...!!!

edit: xed with Kath and Gwath - hey, that rhymes... kind of. Haha.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Besides, I don't need any love-doctoring, and especially not on the part of my father...!!!

If we lived in the Indian or Pakistani countryside it would be different...

Good we don't live there though...

*Sorry, I just couldn't resit the joke that so fitted my real suspicions*

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

About 15 minutes left. Get your votes in soon!

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Nogrod, underlining mine

*Sorry, I just couldn't resit the joke that so fitted my real suspicions*

Thanks for clarification.

I just realised it's less than 15min until the deadline... I will probably vote Groin but I'm having slight last-minute doubts...


edit: xed with the modgod

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Eomer

Deliverance earned through chance, whatever Wargs are in the time gathered.

Now this would point towards there being a struggle between who gets the kill in the first place - so at least two different sides wishing to do that.

That "whatever wargs are" stuff makes me a bit nervous about my interpretation might be true indeed (or then Eomer is just toying with that idea I brought forwards yesterDay and playing me for a fool). I mean why say "whatever wargs are" if not hinting at different ways some of us are tied into this carnage - like with lovers one is the baddie and one is the "goodie" with the intention of her/his baddie winning...

But this rest is just Greek to me ("Hebrew to me" would be the Finnish wording of the same thing):

The carnage begins and the originator steps nearer. Unseen is he who shadows the master. Both march to our bleak axis, the confirmation of our pain, towards the slayers we experience as harrowers.

the originator, the unseen who shadows the master? the master = the originator? the slayers?

Oh my... that may be the end of my nice lovers-idea... But if it is, we're really in trouble with that many villains to kill us...