The Balrog vs The Witch King - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

obloquy · 10-02-2007, 02:50 PM

WK wouldn't even consider a hostile confrontation with Durin's Bane. He's arrogant, but not stupid. If WK appears to be aggressive towards Gandalf, it's most likely because he has no clue who Gandalf really is. The Witch-King was a Man. He was a formidable foe against other Men because of Sauron's backing, but he was on an entirely different (and lower) tier than the embodied Maiar (and even the Eldar). Durin's Bane would have feared him even less than Glorfindel did, who, you'll recall, sent him flying more than once.

By the way, can we please stop taking for granted that Sauron actually transfused some of his Awesome Juice into the Witch-King? It's not a fact, and I feel that the argument for it is pretty tenuous.

10-02-2007, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by obloquy

By the way, can we please stop taking for granted that Sauron actually transfused some of his Awesome Juice into the Witch-King? It's not a fact, and I feel that the argument for it is pretty tenuous.

The Balrog was slain long before the Witch King received an added demonic force from Sauron. Therefore, in this thread at least, one cannot logically contend the enhanced Witch King with the Balrog. Not that it would make too much difference in this contest, in my opinion. Imagine a great servant of Morgoth being slain by a servant of Sauron?

obloquy · 10-02-2007, 03:12 PM

Are you mocking me? You quote the portion of my post in which I request that we stick to the facts regarding the Witch-King's "enhancement" (that, as far as we know for certain, it was literary rather than literal) and respond by, once again, referring to the event as if it were indisputable.

Besides, you're the one who asked what would happen if they fought.

Boromir88 · 10-02-2007, 03:22 PM

Quote:

WK wouldn't even consider a hostile confrontation with Durin's Bane. He's arrogant, but not stupid.~obloquy

Good point. The Witch-King tends to know when he's over matched, and when he is over matched he has a tendency to run away.

10-02-2007, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by obloquy

Besides, you're the one who asked what would happen if they fought.

The contest between these fell creatures is as much of wills than of might. My feeling is they would not fight each other physically, as I believe the battle here is a psychological one. It is also perfectly plausible that they could have met in Moria, in which case the Witch King would not be able to flee. For all we knew, the Witch King & his followers could have been hiding in the shadows of Moria until the Company arrived.

Morwen · 10-02-2007, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mansun

The contest between these fell creatures is as much of wills than of might. My feeling is they would not fight each other physically, as I believe the battle here is a psychological one. It is also perfectly plausible that they could have met in Moria, in which case the Witch King would not be able to flee. For all we knew, the Witch King & his followers could have been hiding in the shadows of Moria until the Company arrived.

Whether the contest is a physical one or a battle of wills or both, the point is that the Balrog, in origin one of the Ainur like Sauron himself, is in a class above the Witch King. The contest is therefore not one between equals and the question to my mind isn't whether the Balrog can defeat the Witch King, but how long would he take to do so.

10-02-2007, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morwen

Whether the contest is a physical one or a battle of wills or both, the point is that the Balrog, in origin one of the Ainur like Sauron himself, is in a class above the Witch King. The contest is therefore not one between equals and the question to my mind isn't whether the Balrog can defeat the Witch King, but how long would he take to do so.

I think the Witch King, being overmatched in latent power, may well have been forced to neal to the Balrog in recognition of his status. The psychological pressure on him to do so would have been enormous. Though this is only one theory, as the Ring totally subdues the Witch King to only recognise Sauron as his master, so a hostile encounter cannot be ruled out.

obloquy · 10-02-2007, 03:58 PM

If you're talking about the type of spiritual battle I outline here, then I suppose I understand what you're talking about. But the concept barely applies to any battle involving the Witch-King since he has so little power on the spiritual plane. If the battle was one of wills (spiritual power), as you say, it would unquestionably be no contest at all. Which is why I am sure the Witch-King would have avoided such a confrontation, just as he avoided Glorfindel.

That said, I don't see why the Balrog would be hostile towards the Witch-King, since he would most likely recognize who he represents.

Morwen · 10-02-2007, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by obloquy

That said, I don't see why the Balrog would be hostile towards the Witch-King, since he would most likely recognize who he represents.

I don't know. The Balrog's agenda, as far as we know from LotR, involves keeping Moria dwarf free and ridding it of random walking parties. Like Sauron, he is a former servant of Morgoth but I don't know that this would necessarily make him automatically sympathetic to Sauron or tolerant of the Witch King if he found him wandering through Moria.

obloquy · 10-02-2007, 04:32 PM

He may not have reason to be sympathetic, but that alone does not provide a reason for him to be hostile.

Anárion Cúthalion · 08-26-2008, 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morwen

I don't know. The Balrog's agenda, as far as we know from LotR, involves keeping Moria dwarf free and ridding it of random walking parties. Like Sauron, he is a former servant of Morgoth but I don't know that this would necessarily make him automatically sympathetic to Sauron or tolerant of the Witch King if he found him wandering through Moria.

If memory serves, Sauron was basically Morgoth's number two man (or rather, Maia). If that is true, that would mean the Balrog would be Sauron's servent.

Eönwë · 08-25-2008, 06:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Good point. The Witch-King tends to know when he's over matched, and when he is over matched he has a tendency to run away.

Err... Gandalf? But then again, no-one except Cirdan knew exactly what he was.

Quote:

Originally Posted by obloquy

By the way, can we please stop taking for granted that Sauron actually transfused some of his Awesome Juice into the Witch-King? It's not a fact, and I feel that the argument for it is pretty tenuous.

Yes, without Sauron he's just a mortal, however powerful and sorcerous (is that a word?). I think he still has the Gift of Men, however long it takes to reach him. A Maia is a Maia and cannot be truly killed- ever. Even an elf can't, so what makes anyone think a mere man, however powerful, could match a Maia.

wispeight · 08-26-2008, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Err... Gandalf? But then again, no-one except Cirdan knew exactly what he was.

Yes, without Sauron he's just a mortal, however powerful and sorcerous (is that a word?). I think he still has the Gift of Men, however long it takes to reach him. A Maia is a Maia and cannot be truly killed- ever. Even an elf can't, so what makes anyone think a mere man, however powerful, could match a Maia.

~~~~~~~~
I'd say sorcerous is a word. What is 'Gift of Men'? In RTK Gandalf says, and I'm paraphrasing, "They called me the great pilgrim, I've lived three hundred lives of men and find now that I have no time."

I've barely read anything on this site in relation to its mass of information. This post is my ignoring the shallow end of the pool. What is the general consensus of the interpretation of the above quote, or any-one individual who might want to chime in with their two cents? I'm only curious about the deep end. Going back to the shallows now. Gaia mi madre, Poseidon mi padre, who 'm I? Just a riddle for fun.

obloquy · 08-26-2008, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wispeight

~~~~~~~~
I'd say sorcerous is a word. What is 'Gift of Men'? In RTK Gandalf says, and I'm paraphrasing, "They called me the great pilgrim, I've lived three hundred lives of men and find now that I have no time."

I've barely read anything on this site in relation to its mass of information. This post is my ignoring the shallow end of the pool. What is the general consensus of the interpretation of the above quote, or any-one individual who might want to chime in with their two cents? I'm only curious about the deep end. Going back to the shallows now. Gaia mi madre, Poseidon mi padre, who 'm I? Just a riddle for fun.

I don't think there's anything mysterious about what Gandalf says, really. In other words, He's always had plenty of time and suddenly he's in a dire rush to prevent catastrophe.

Nerwen · 08-26-2008, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wispeight

What is 'Gift of Men'?

Death!

Quote:

Originally Posted by wispeight

In RTK Gandalf says, and I'm paraphrasing, "They called me the great pilgrim, I've lived three hundred lives of men and find now that I have no time."

The quote is from the film The Two Towers:

Quote:

The Grey Pilgrim... that's what they used to call me. Three hundred lives of men I've walked this earth and now I have no time.

I'm not sure what you're asking, though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wispeight

Gaia mi madre, Poseidon mi padre, who 'm I?

Hi, Antaeus.

wispeight · 08-27-2008, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Death!

The quote is from the film The Two Towers:

I'm not sure what you're asking, though.

Hi, Antaeus.

~~~~~

I wish I had read the books. I watch the movies everytime they come on. I always read for escape and that ended long ago. I find it a shame that I can't sit down with a book anymore. Now its just study all the time. Even when I purchase books, I go online to read them. I'm a bit rediculous that way. I think I read on this forum that Gandalf is a maia, so my question is now not relavent. I like effortless grace, thanks for the reply.

10-02-2007, 03:12 PM	#3
obloquy Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: WA Posts: 941	Are you mocking me? You quote the portion of my post in which I request that we stick to the facts regarding the Witch-King's "enhancement" (that, as far as we know for certain, it was literary rather than literal) and respond by, once again, referring to the event as if it were indisputable. Besides, you're the one who asked what would happen if they fought. Last edited by obloquy; 10-02-2007 at 08:58 PM.

10-02-2007, 02:50 PM	#1
obloquy Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: WA Posts: 941	WK wouldn't even consider a hostile confrontation with Durin's Bane. He's arrogant, but not stupid. If WK appears to be aggressive towards Gandalf, it's most likely because he has no clue who Gandalf really is. The Witch-King was a Man. He was a formidable foe against other Men because of Sauron's backing, but he was on an entirely different (and lower) tier than the embodied Maiar (and even the Eldar). Durin's Bane would have feared him even less than Glorfindel did, who, you'll recall, sent him flying more than once. By the way, can we please stop taking for granted that Sauron actually transfused some of his Awesome Juice into the Witch-King? It's not a fact, and I feel that the argument for it is pretty tenuous.

10-02-2007, 03:58 PM	#8
obloquy Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: WA Posts: 941	If you're talking about the type of spiritual battle I outline here, then I suppose I understand what you're talking about. But the concept barely applies to any battle involving the Witch-King since he has so little power on the spiritual plane. If the battle was one of wills (spiritual power), as you say, it would unquestionably be no contest at all. Which is why I am sure the Witch-King would have avoided such a confrontation, just as he avoided Glorfindel. That said, I don't see why the Balrog would be hostile towards the Witch-King, since he would most likely recognize who he represents.

10-02-2007, 04:32 PM	#10
obloquy Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: WA Posts: 941	He may not have reason to be sympathetic, but that alone does not provide a reason for him to be hostile.