Are Orcs That Bad?

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by skip spence

Well, if we go into the Arda metaphysics, a soul (fea) is granted to a child directly by Eru and isn't a product of the two parents as is the body. The difference between a Man and an Elf is the soul, not the body. What happens then when an Elf and a Man produces a child? Well, it seems the child is granted either a Man's soul or an Elf's soul by choice (Elrond chose to belong to the Elves, his brother Elros chose to be a Man etc.).

What about Orcs then? Do they have a soul? I suppose so, as they are not beasts but rational beings capable of procreating in the manner of the Children of Illuvatar. A body (hroa) can not live without a soul (fea) and Melkor could not create life on his own. To my mind the only (somewhat) logical solution is that Orcs either are descended from Elves and thus have an Elvish soul granted by Eru and are immortal, or that they are of human stock and are mortal. Like Morthoron I'm leaning towards the latter alternative which is, I believe, Tolkiens last known position on the matter.

I actually think the idea that Orcs were originally Elves works much better. For one, as soon as the Elves awoke, Morgoth was out there capturing them like a human-catcher in Planet of the Apes, so there had to be Elvish ones. And then there's this question of Eru granting fear to his unborn Children. Would Eru keep granting Fear to new 'mortal' Orcs? It puts him in a sticky wicket. Thinking of Tolkien's own position on Eru, I think he would have been better off staying with the idea that Orcs were originally Elves.

Even if Morgoth got around the problem that only Eru could issue 'souls' by having had some way of recycling Fear into recycled and fixed-up Hroa (which might explain the Orcs' physical ugliness) once an Orc had croaked, then there would be no way he could recycle the Fear of Men as by their nature they leave the world, whereas Elven ones do not.

Though what I actually prefer is not to know exactly what they were, as it leaves it more interesting to have them possibly being Elves and/or Men originally.

I tend not to like a lot of Tolkien's very late stage tinkerings anyway. They muddy things far too much alas.

But how can a being be hyperintelligent, able to come up with its own solutions and at the same time unredeemable, ie born "evil"? Someone who is intelligent can choose to torture and kill for the fun of it or choose not to, there's no way around that. A whole people that's all bad and completely unredeemable isn't plausable to me. There can be no such thing.

If it is by nature evil then it can be like that.

The Uruk Hai chapter clearly demonstrates that the Orcs were skilled healers in their ways and certainly took care of their own. There was plenty of comradeship too and all the fighting was between the different fractions, not within them, as was the case in Cirith Ungol. In fact, their behaviour is human through and through, although they also are cruel and wicked.

Exactly, Orcs must have at least that shred of humanity.