Are Orcs That Bad?

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Originally Posted by Morthoron

There is, of course, the original statement that the wise 'believed' Orcs to be descended from imprisoned, twisted Elves; however, that goes against Tolkien's references to Elves dying of sadness (a sort of emotional suicide), and rape being a cause of such death:

Yes that quote seems to make the Elvish orgin improbable. However, one could speculate that an Elf child abducted from his or her parents at a very young age would live on despite horrific conditions as it would know of nothing else.

Originally Posted by Eönwe

Are you suggesting Immortal Orcs?

Well, if we go into the Arda metaphysics, a soul (fea) is granted to a child directly by Eru and isn't a product of the two parents as is the body. The difference between a Man and an Elf is the soul, not the body. What happens then when an Elf and a Man produces a child? Well, it seems the child is granted either a Man's soul or an Elf's soul by choice (Elrond chose to belong to the Elves, his brother Elros chose to be a Man etc.).

What about Orcs then? Do they have a soul? I suppose so, as they are not beasts but rational beings capable of procreating in the manner of the Children of Illuvatar. A body (hroa) can not live without a soul (fea) and Melkor could not create life on his own. To my mind the only (somewhat) logical solution is that Orcs either are descended from Elves and thus have an Elvish soul granted by Eru and are immortal, or that they are of human stock and are mortal. Like Morthoron I'm leaning towards the latter alternative which is, I believe, Tolkiens last known position on the matter.

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

...they are also hyper intelligent and could easily come up with their own solutions. But my point is it's their sheer ruthlessness and them being unable to be 'redeemed' that makes them so interesting and frightening.

But how can a being be hyperintelligent, able to come up with its own solutions and at the same time unredeemable, ie born "evil"? Someone who is intelligent can choose to torture and kill for the fun of it or choose not to, there's no way around that. A whole people that's all bad and completely unredeemable isn't plausable to me. There can be no such thing.

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Like I've said, if Orcs are breeding in the normal way, then this reduces the likelihood that their home culture is inherently violent. If you look at the most ruthless of soldiers, they must still retain some basic emotions such as caring for their comrades, for if they didn't, then who would care for them if they were injured?

The Uruk Hai chapter clearly demonstrates that the Orcs were skilled healers in their ways and certainly took care of their own. There was plenty of comradeship too and all the fighting was between the different fractions, not within them, as was the case in Cirith Ungol. In fact, their behaviour is human through and through, although they also are cruel and wicked.