The Good and The Bad - a Quick Look at the Movies

[Boromir88]

However I thought it was very wrong to have him kill the Mouth of Sauron.~Mith

Oh definitely, that was completely inexcusable in my opinion. I can't even chalk this one up to "trying to reach a more modern audience" defense, or the "modern audience wouldn't understand the era Tolkien was writing in" defense.

There are many many current movies where the evil, bad ambassador is granted parley, and even though you know the guy is as rotten as his teeth usually is, are granted parley. Look at Troy, Gladiator, King Arthur, Braveheart, The Patriot, Kingdom of Heaven all these movies have "Rules of War" and treating with the enemies' ambassador/leader. I saw Prince Caspian about a week ago (absolutely loved it by the way!) and the evil Telmarine King dude is treated with dignity and respect when he is bartering a deal with the good King Edmund. So, I don't by the "modern audience won't understand" excuse for this one. Beheading the MoS is just inexcusable.

Sometimes it seems like Jackson thought we viewers were stupid and wouldn't "understand," so he had to dumb it down. That's possibly the most aggravating thing about the movies. What is it that the dwarf says in Narnia "You start treating animals like they're dumb and they become dumb?"

Lalaith, which is why when Theoden perks up and is all gun-ho about aiding Gondor, it doesn't make any sense. Quite literally 10 minutes ago Theoden was going on about how he would never help Gondor because what had Gondor done for him!

Gimli definitely seems to be one of the characters that takes a back seat to the talk about what characters were "ruined." Certainly he doesn't get as much mentioning as Faramir. I actually tend to forget about Gimli because I thought his portrayal in FOTR was pretty good. He was used for comic relief, and in Moria I admit that "no one tosses a dwarf" thing was pretty funny, but the 2nd and 3rd time it got old. Anyway, in FOTR Gimli had some comic relief but I don't think he ever lost his dignity. By TTT and ROTK that's changed and Jackson took the comic relief thing way too far with Gimli.

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

There are many many current movies where the evil, bad ambassador is granted parley, and even though you know the guy is as rotten as his teeth usually is, are granted parley. Look at Troy, Gladiator, King Arthur, Braveheart, The Patriot, Kingdom of Heaven all these movies have "Rules of War" and treating with the enemies' ambassador/leader. I saw Prince Caspian about a week ago (absolutely loved it by the way!) and the evil Telmarine King dude is treated with dignity and respect when he is bartering a deal with the good King Edmund. So, I don't by the "modern audience won't understand" excuse for this one. Beheading the MoS is just inexcusable.

Haven't you seen 300?!?! "THIS IS SPARTA!"

But seriously, I think it was wrong as well.

[MatthewM]

Before I continue the Bad list, I must add some things to the Good. In bold are the recently added, and so far the full list...

THE GOOD (Changes, also those scenes which stuck nicely with the book)

* The Prologue. Nicely done, although the geography itself poses a problem for a later scene.
* Gandalf's entrance. McKellen as Gandalf was a great choice. Although some don't care for Frodo's entrance, I think that it worked nicely with Gandalf's, and gives the viewers a decent introduction to the two main characters.
* Gandalf's meeting with Bilbo.
* A Long Expected Party
* The Hobbits. They look like Hobbits should and would look.
* In the EE, we see the flight of the Wood Elves. I love this scene. A great nod to the meeting the Hobbits had with them.
* The Wizard Fight. This is one of the changes PJ made that I actually like, and I think it fits very nicely within Tolkien's world.
* The Nazgul. In my opinion, PJ succeeds in making you feel fear when the Black Riders approach.
* The Prancing Pony. Although I'm not sure how I feel about Frodo's magnetic finger trick, the P.P. scene is definitely kosher with Tolkien. The whole medieval feel of the inn completely does it for me here. Great lighting and everything. A nice nod at the book when you see Bill Ferny and his goons glaring at the Hobbits.
* Aragorn. Good entrance, and although nowadays Viggo would not have been my first choice, I think he pulled the role off nicely.
* The Ranger sword. This was recently debated in a topic here, but I don't see any harm in giving Strider a sword that is actually functional compared with a sword that is broken.
* The Three Trolls. Gives us book fans comfort and joy!
* Scene at the Ford. I have mixed feeling about the actual Flight to the Ford, including Arwen's appearance, but I don't think that it was necessarily bad. It wasn't good, though. I liked the water horses in the actual Ford.
* Many Meetings. You have to like the golden calm of Rivendell...beautiful.
* Arwen and Elrond. Looking good.
* (Strictly appearance wise) Legolas and Gimli fit the part. Bean as Boromir did not, and we will get to that later. I get touchy on this subject! We are talking strictly appearance right now.
* Aragorn and Arwen in the blue twilight. I think this is a great scene, and it plants those important seeds that need to be sown in order to show the people the relationship of A & A. Not to mention, great lighting in this scene. Love the blue.
* "I will take it! Though I do not know the way." I love the way Frodo delivers these lines. It makes for a powerful moment indeed.
* The Ring Goes South. I will get to the bad changes made here, but there are some good elements here which stuck to Tolkien, such as the scenery. I like the choice for Hollin.
* Caradhras. Mixed feelings, it should have been done better and elaborated more. Still, it wasn't that bad compared to some other things. Having Legolas walk on the snow was a major plus and adds to the good of this scene.
* "Knock your head against these doors Peregrin Took...!" I like how they added this (I think it's in the EE) because it shows Gandalf's short temper, especially when it comes to Pip.
* Boromir and Aragorn attempting to slay the Watcher...shows their bravery, rather than just Sam's (as in the book).
* Moria. Was done very well. Of course, as with every part of the story, could have been elaborated more, but looking at what we were given - pretty good. I was glad to see Pippin's folly, although I don't understand why he couldn't have just actually thrown a stone instead of a whole skeleton.
* Pippin putting the final blow into the cave troll. A nice nod to Pippin's grand deed of slaying a troll during the Battle at the Black Gate.
* Gandalf's fall. Nice.
* The scenery of Lothlorien.
* Galadriel. I think Cate was a wise choice. I don't know if it's just me, but after seeing Cate as Galadriel she (Cate) is wayyyy hotter.
* The Mirror of Galadriel. Done well, along with G's temptation.
* The gift scene was nice, although I think it complete rubbish that they didn't show Boromir get his gift of a golden belt.
* The Great River and the Argonaths. Could have elaborated much more, though.
* The Breaking of the Fellowship. The attempt to take the Ring, although I would have done things differently, was nicely done.
* Boromir's death scene. Again, I would have done it a bit differently, but it was done well. It showed Boromir's valiant and heroic nature as he attempted to save M & P.
* The Departure of Boromir. I'm glad they showed his funeral boat going down the Falls of Rauros.
* Aragorn slaying Lurtz. You have to admit, it feels great when he beheads him.
* Frodo and Sam. Done well, especially Frodo thinking of Gandalf's words.
* "Let's hunt some orc." Delivered nicely by Viggo and set up for an optimistic future.

THE BAD (continued)

* Let's get it over with...Frodo should have been older.
* The time was out of whack. That was not 17 years!
* Pippin is not in the company that sets off. I do not like this, and "Three is Company" is completely left out of Pippin's story!
* "Conspiracy Unmasked" is also left out. What gives?! The conspiracy was what brought the Hobbits together and from the onset showed Sam, Merry, and Pippin's devotion to Frodo. M & P's entrance from Farmer Maggot's crop is horrible and too random, and is just not true.
* No Farmer Maggot.
* Frodo's magnetic finger. Ok, so I know that a dancing hobbit atop a table falling and slipping on the Ring would not show so well for live action, but I don't know about this scene where Frodo falls after trying to hush Pippin and the Ring in mid-air magically finds his finger. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the Ring could do that.
* "Ash on my tomatoes" - although funny, there were no tomatoes in M-e!
* Arwen taking Frodo to the Ford. I've expressed some ok feelings about this scene, but overall - I don't know if it was too good.
* That horrible scene in which Boromir walks into some quiet place in Rivendell where the Shards are just laying on a statue and Aragorn is reading a book. Right off the bat, PJ trys to make Boromir look bad. Book Boromir would have never picked up the hilt of the Shards, then after cutting himself proceed to look at Aragorn with a cowardly face and then drop the hilt, walk away, hear it fall, and then exit the room without picking it up. What rubbish. This is one of my many quarrels with Movie Boromir. He displayed no respect, and Book Boromir would simply not have done that.
* The Council of Elrond was alright, but it wasn't what it should have been. Boromir should have explained why he was there in the first place. He explains the dream a little bit in the EE, but not in the theatrical. Now, without that explanation, which is the key to why Boromir was in Rivendell in the first place, not to mention the key to why Boromir is the character that he is, how is anybody supposed to know what this guy is doing at Rivendell to hear this almighty Council? Besides my problems with movie Boromir, there were other things about this scene. When the whole council stands up after Gimli's bombastic "no one trust an elf!" line, which I do not like, Gandalf stands up and just starts picking fights with people. He blantantly starts picking a fight with Boromir, I believe. Just does not seem like Gandalf. However, I do like, and I forgot to put this on the "good" list, when Gandalf stands and speaks the Black Tongue to all at the Council in the EE. Nicely done.
* Appearance wise: Boromir does not fit. He was dark-haired, first of all, not light brown haired. He most likely didn't have a beard, seeing as how he was only 40 (not even half of his Numenorean life-span, Faramir lived to be around 118, and both were of "High Numenorean lineage"). He wore a stone around his neck. He did not openly wear chain-mail. And he carried a long sword, not a broad sword. His horn was tipped with silver, not gold. PJ's Boromir doesn't fit the description. People like Bean's Boromir, but I am not a huge fan. Character wise, I don't think PJ did that great. I think book Boromir was much nobler. But I'm not getting into that again. I'm sure a similiar argument could be had with PJ's Aragorn.
* "You have my sword" "and you have my bow", ...etc. This just doesn't make sense and would not work in real life. M-e was a realm of valour and courage. I know this saved time rather than Elrond making the decision after the council, but come on. So PJ is saying that the whole other lot of people present at the Council are all cowards? Seems so. If one person started joining in with "you have my sword", and then this random elf and dwarf gave their pledge, I can assure you that if that was real life most if not all of the others present would also volunteer to go, especially after seeing the others volunteer. "You have my sword Frodo!" ... "No, my sword!" ... "Hey, me too, my axe!!!" Ugh.
* Gandalf being reluctant to go into the Mines. Although I personally think it works better, why did it need to be changed? Aragorn's the one who warned against the Mines, Gandalf wanted to go under from the onset. One of the least bothersome changes, in my opinion.
* Caradhras. While hiking up the mountain, Frodo falls for some reason, tumbles, and in the process the Ring comes off his neck. Then PJ does something that makes no sense to me. He has Boromir pick up the Ring, and although I love the nod to the book (when PJ takes a line from Boromir's speech before he trys to take the Ring) in Bean's "it is a strange fate...", having Boromir pick up the Ring just does not make sense. Firstly, wouldn't technically then he be considered one of the Ring-bearers, regardless of how long he held it? He still held it. Secondly, again PJ is making Boromir look like a bad guy, having the good guy Aragorn almost strike Boromir with his sword. I just don't like this scene...and I know what people in defense would say. "They had to build up Boromir's temptation of the Ring" but come on now, I just don't buy that. Boromir wasn't seriously tempted until Lothlorien.
* Saruman being responsible for having the snow come crashing down onto the Fellowship. Takes away the raw power and mysticism that is Caradhras.
* Balin's Tomb. Not in full - for I like a lot of this battle, especially the moments building up to it, and when the Hobbits scream and go into battle. However, Gimli stands on Balin's grave - that's just not right. And, in the EE, the troll whipping Boromir around unconscious is pretty silly.
* Lothlorien. The Company should have been blindfolded. Definitely could have stuck to the story. Gollum could have made another appearance. Orcs could have been shown getting slayed by ranged elven archers.
* The Mirror. Sam could have been there, but I won't argue much with this one. It was important to get Frodo there, but not really Sam.
* Galadriel's Gifts (EE). Why the heck doesn't PJ film Boromir receiving his gift? Why in the world would he not include that? Especially because the scene was an extended so he didn't have to worry about time, plus the fact it would have taken about 10 seconds. Boromir should have received his golden belt on film. There's no logical reason for not showing it.
* I would have liked to hear some debate about whether or not the Company would go through Fangorn. I would have liked to see more debate before The Great River.
* No Orcs shooting arrows at the Company. No Legolas shooting down the Winged Beast. Like I mentioned, it's nice because I love these scenes so much so I'm glad in a way they were not filmed, but it would have been cool.
* Tol Brandir was not really explained. I don't recall them explaining how it was that Frodo saw what he saw, being on the Seat of Seeing.
* Frodo should have announced he was going off. The guy just wanders away without telling anyone? Would the ring bearer really do that? Come on.
* Boromir's speech to Frodo before he trys and takes the Ring is almost wholly absent. This is very upsetting as this is one of the best parts in the book. The scene is rather rushed.
* Boromir was pierced by numerous arrows, not just three.




That may be it. However, if I think of more they will surely be added.

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by MatthewM

Haven't you seen 300?!?!

Don't get me started.

[Boromir88]

Haven't you seen 300?!?!~Matthew

That part of the movie was supposedly accurate (although the movie was based off the comic book, and the comic book wasn't in any way trying to stick to history). Anyway, the Persian Kings believed they were the master of nature. They believed they could control the seas, the land...etc. It was either Xerxes or Darius I, who during a storm, actually whipped the ocean to calm it down, of course following the belief that the Kings controlled nature. So, whenever Persian ambassadors went to other "kingdoms" as a tribute they'd ask for land and water. By giving them land and water you are accepting Persian rule and are in the Persian Empire. By refusing, the Persians would just come with an army and take it themselves.

Well, in true Spartan fashion, when the Persian emissaries came asking for "land and water." The Spartans pretty much said "We got plenty of that down there in this well" and threw the ambassadors into the well...or so how the story goes. And seeing as the Spartans were battle-hungry, blood-thirsty, beasts of combat it comes to no surprise they would treat the Persian ambassadors in such a way. In Gladiator the Roman ambassador rides back without a head, but look how the Germania tribes were portrayed in comparison to the Romans. The Romans get a very good portrayal in Gladiator (and probably the way the Romans would have liked themselves to be seen!), and the German tribes were depicted as ruthless barbarians, hence they decapitate the Roman ambassador.

Enough on 300 and Gladiator, even though they are two movies I love watching.

As far as Boromir's death, we actually get a pretty good account of the battle from Pippin in The Uruk-hai chapter. I believe Pippin describes the orcs coming in three waves, and on the 3rd, Boromir was finally slewn...Pippin says "Boromir made them fight" and a "rain of arrows always aimed at Boromir." In fact, Boromir had successfully driven off the Orcs and they were on their way back to camp when the 3rd wave came and they were just too many. So, we get a really good account from Pippin, sometimes people can exaggerate, but I doubt Pippin was doing it here. Pippin tells Denethor it took "many arrows" to slay Boromir, and this is supported by Faramir telling Frodo and Sam that there were "many wounds on him."

With that being said, I'm perfectly fine with Boromir's death in the movie, as it is quite possibly the greatest death fight/scene ever filmed. Not only does it stir up the emotions, but visually it is absolutely stunning. Not much more to say about it other than, I was shocked with amazement. Too bad Jackson couldn't treat Theoden's death the same way. I didn't have any time to reallyjust like that Gimli's prancing around the battle, cracking jokes and there's some elephant marshmellow dude gimping around.

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

...It was either Xerxes or Darius I...

It was Darius who sent the ambassadors (whose murder the Spartans atoned for by sending two of their young nobles to Persia) and Xerxes who whipped the sea as punishment for being unruly and making his crossing difficult.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

There are many many current movies where the evil, bad ambassador is granted parley, and even though you know the guy is as rotten as his teeth usually is, are granted parley. Look at Troy, Gladiator, King Arthur, Braveheart, The Patriot, Kingdom of Heaven all these movies have "Rules of War" and treating with the enemies' ambassador/leader. I saw Prince Caspian about a week ago (absolutely loved it by the way!) and the evil Telmarine King dude is treated with dignity and respect when he is bartering a deal with the good King Edmund. So, I don't by the "modern audience won't understand" excuse for this one. Beheading the MoS is just inexcusable.

Originally Posted by MatthewM

Haven't you seen 300?!?! "THIS IS SPARTA!"

I was going to say, that. But even though 300 has next to no plotline compared to LOTR, even there it was treated as shocking. I mean, look at the messenger's last words: "NO man threatens a messenger. This is blasphemy! This is madness!" Anyway, there it had no story and was done for visual effect. In LOTR EE he kills him it so casually (but then If we're talking about ROTK I have quite a few complaints there).


And also MatthewM, I don't know if thiss has been said before, but I like the way Gandalf speaks the Black Speech in Rivendell.

[Macalaure]

What should be added to The Bad, I think, are the Stairs of Khazad-dûm, a completely unnecessary scene featuring a defiance of the laws of physics and, on top of that, the first attempted Dwarf tossing. It does create some tension, but one has to wonder whether a Balrog(!) alone wouldn't have sufficed for this purpose.

Talking of the Balrog, I would add him to The Good. He did not look the way he was supposed to, but the way he was presented was rather effective.

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

And also MatthewM, I don't know if thiss has been said before, but I like the way Gandalf speaks the Black Speech in Rivendell.

Yes, that's on the list under the Good category. I agree!

Mac- I agree, the Balrog should make the Good list.