The Good and The Bad - a Quick Look at the Movies

[Lush]

* The Old Forest - Tom Bombadil - The Barrow-Downs. Quite frankly, these chapters are so important and close to my heart that I am glad they did not get filmed. At first I was disappointed and that they should have been included, but thinking about it now- it's good that these scenes were not tampered with.

Preeecisely.

It's my favourite part of the book, and it's also 100% unfilmable.

[Folwren]

Nice. I have only read some of the list. I noted that your last 'Good' thing was the "Let's hunt some orc" line, and I just want to make note here that I disagree utterly. I hate that line. It is probably my least favorite line of any movie that I have ever watched. None other, to my knowledge, grates so badly on my nerves - not even the Legolas ones that people rant so much about.

Otherwise, everything else you've stated and that I've read, I agree with.

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Folwren

None other, to my knowledge, grates so badly on my nerves - not even the Legolas ones that people rant so much about.

Never, Legolas' lines are a thousand times worse! In fact, Orlando Bloom's depiction of Legolas has even furthered my dislike of elves. He plays Legolas in a very cocky and sort of arragant way.

[Quempel]

My view of Orlando and his Legolas is that of Plank from Ed, Edd and Eddy. The entire protrayal of Legolas is And the continual drooling by the fangurls One thing about Legolas that really ruined it for me was his lack of emotion at all, I blame Mr. Bloom for this, since he has of yet been able to prove he nothing more than a pretty face that couldn't act his way out of a wet paper bag.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Lush

Preeecisely.

It's my favourite part of the book, and it's also 100% unfilmable.

I don't agree it's unfilmable. In fact, many episodes of these chapters could have been fantastic visually, almost without special effects. Just picture the Hobbits leaving the Shire and entering the Old Forest in the grey dawn, with silver dew on the grass and fog in the air. Or the spooky atmosphere inside the Forest, the creaking of the trees, the sudden stirring of the leaves, a bransch falling right in front of them ("It's just the wind", says Merry). The Barrow Downs could also be great on film - when the Barrow Wight takes them you could use the book for a script and it would be a great scene. Tom Bombadill, as he is described, would be difficult to pull off though. But then again, he is silly, even in the book, with his hopping about, whistling, and hopeless fashion sense.

I think the problems have to do with plotting and time concerns, more than anything else. In order to do these chapters justice you'd have a running time of at least 20-30 minutes more. These episodes could also confuse the audience, since they are sort of a side quest with little or nothing to do with the ring.

[Lush]

The Old Forest itself is very filmable, but I only see the Tom Bombadil part as being sustainable in a good cartoon (possibly anime - that would be pretty, pretty interesting, or else disastrous, but you never know).

In my mind, there are some elements of the book that immediately lend themselves to filming, and they set the tone from the beginning. Then we come to Tom Bombadil, and we get this subtle, but important shift. And I honestly can't think of a single director who could do it justice.

I'd love to be proven wrong. Of course, by the time anyone gets around to doing a re-make (or re-interpretation, or whatever the kids are calling it these days), I'll probably be a senile old grandma.

*le sigh*

[skip spence]

I read Matthew's op and also agree with most of what is said. Some things I don't even recognise though, but I haven't watched the EE so that perhaps explains it. Should I? This tread makes it clear to me how much I enjoyed the first movie however. I think it was excellent, and the few gripes I do have are easy to look past in the light of all that was great. Prior to it's premiere I had great expectations but the movie was actually better than I had hoped for. Sadly, the second film failed to live up to my expectations, and when the third one came out I didn't even to go watch it until months after it's opening.

I didn't mind the "let's hunt some orc" comment though. As I remember it, Aragorn did express some similar thoughts in the book, and it did not seem out of place to me.

[Lush]

I always use the phrase "let's hunt some orc" when hunting cockroaches in my bedroom. So it must be good.

[Maedhros_the_Tall]

Originally Posted by Lush

I always use the phrase "let's hunt some orc" when hunting cockroaches in my bedroom. So it must be good.

That settles that then!

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Lush

I always use the phrase "let's hunt some orc" when hunting cockroaches in my bedroom. So it must be good.

Those must be some mighty big mutant cockroaches. What do they eat when they can't get Lushes?

In regards to MatthewM's original post, I would say that, generally speaking, FotR is quite good for the first 3rd of the movie (I will only be referring to the extended versions, because honestly, has anyone watched the original film versions since the DVDs came out?). Perhaps that is because, save for acts of omission (like Tom Bombadil, for instance) which are pardonable, given time constraints, the movie adheres to Tolkien's story. I don't believe anywhere in the three movies does one get a better sense of Middle-earth. The sequences in the Shire are excellent, very Hobbitish; however, once one hits the Ford of Bruinen, the film begins to deviate from the original plot egregiously, and that's where the megalomaniac scripting (or perhaps it should be termed 'Narcissistic Jacksonophilia', for PJ's love of himself -- I will refer to the syndrome as NJS going forward) becomes apparent (fortunately, it is not as pronounced in FotR as it will become in TTT).

Arwen calling down the water upon the Nazgul is downright silly, isn't it? When the film was first released, I believe the entire movie theater giggled in unison. Read the sequence in the book, then watch the movie version. The book presents a failing Hobbit valiantly defending himself from the horrific specters of the Nazgul taunting him, almost hypnotically seducing him to follow them into darkness. It is a frightening, very vivid scene, but in the movie, we lose sight of the main protagonist completely, and instead we have Arwen muttering Sindarin, and then with a look of surprise she watches as the waves sweep away the Nazgul -- talk about anticlimactic. Plainly, it is a bit of NJS foisting a character who has no part in that sequence onto the viewing public. We get no sense of the power of her father, Elrond, at all (and he is insipid and whiny throughout all three movies); in fact, Gandalf doesn't even get to utter his humorous line regarding the adding of the horses to Elrond's flood. It is a lost opportunity to follow the better original plot for the director's personal aggrandizement.

Then we get a glimpse of Gandalf battling Saruman at Orthanc. Others here have said they liked the scene; however, to me the sharp angles, jangly shots and off-kilter camera positions in Orthanc make it seem more sci-fi than Middle-earth (although I admit the moth sequence atop Orthanc is superb). Then the entire film sequence at Rivendell becomes a hit or miss proposition: Bilbo craving the ring is excellent, Elrond's defeatism is ludicrous; Sean Bean's Boromir is magnetic in the Council of Elrond (certainly the most powerful perfomance of that sequence), Viggo's weakly apologetic Aragorn -- not so much.

I will reply further as Matthew continues and as time permits.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Lush

I always use the phrase "let's hunt some orc" when hunting cockroaches in my bedroom. So it must be good.

Yes, it certainly must be good for all kinds of ironical reconstructions and recontextualising, which I'm sure our darling Lushious savours. Can't say as I'd fancy eating one, though I can imagine crunchy and ketchup jokes.

So even when chasing spiders, I'm one who niggles over Tolkien's own niggling over orcs and whether they had souls and etc. So my own curiousity is mildly aroused when Movie-Argorn is given a line more in keeping with a fox hunt. Are orcs animals (leaving aside for the moment the question of whether animals have souls and the entire animal rights movements, which surely does deserve its own thread, as Tolkien has given us lots of talking, animate animals) or are they a degraded form of human/elf? Remember, aboriginal peoples in North America were hunted like animals, with bounties on their heads, and the KKK thought nothing of hunting down and murdering in cold blood Black Americans.

Then there's thoughts of Book-Aragorn's nature to consider. Aragorn, he-who-would-be-king, and a character whose Book purity some find mighty hard to swaller. Book-Aragorn is a figure out of heroic literature whose idealism comes via some very high-falutin' language. Book-Aragorn would never snog his horse while in the midst of a dream of Arwen. Maybe in a dream of battle where his horse revives him, but Book-Aragorn doesn't cross-themes.

After all, the decision is a momentous one, where Aragorn must decide either to uphold his promise to serve and protect the Ringbearer or to pursue the hobbitnappers of Pippin and Merry. The situation is a tad more serious than 'let's have an adventure today.'

So, here's what Tolkien has Book-Aragorn say:

Originally Posted by Book-Aragorn, The Two Towers, "The Departure of Boromir"

'Let me think!' said Aragorn. 'And now may I make a right choice, and change the evil fate of this unhappy day!' He stood silent for a moment. 'I will follow the Orcs,' he said at last. 'I would have guided Frodo to Mordor and gone with him to the end; but if I see him now in the wilderness, I must abandon the captives to torment and death. My heart speaks clearly at last: the fate of the Bearer is in my hands no longer. The Company has played it part. Yet we that remain cannot forsake our companions while we have strength left. Come! We will go now. Leave all that can be spared behind! We will press on by day and dark!'

That's quite a Shakespearean monologue. Clearly Book-Aragorn is guided not by the blood-lust of the hunt but by ethical decision.

I wager that those who enjoy PJ's adventure flick prefer the pithy call to kill orcs while those who enjoy Tolkien's more ancient mode of heroism prefer the ethical eloquence of Book-Aragorn. Chaque-un a son gout.

[Lush]

Hi Beth! Personally, I read the movie Aragorn as trying to raise his companions' spirits by making light of what is essentially a terrible situation. It's a psychological tactic, meant to heal, and I use it on myself with the cockroaches all the time (yes they are huge, disgusting, and quite possibly have souls - horrible souls forged in Hades, reincarnated from evil clowns, that is).

I actually don't think that Aragorn believes that they are animals, particularly based on the look he gives them after he tells Frodo to run, facing the horde. It's a very knowing look, there's mirth in it, they're seeing him and he's seeing them, and he's like, "Alright fellas, let's do this."

He looks like he's glad to have worthy opponents. Once again, a psychological tactic. In keeping with his whole born-to-lead thing.

That's my take on it, anyway.