Tol-in-Gaurhoth XLVII: Dueling Wizards Werewolf II

[the phantom]

Sorry that took up so much space, Legate. The whole thing is probably a bore to read and is simply a distraction and doesn't help us find WWs or the EW one little bit. But I just couldn't allow Roa to get away with posting an attack that contained a dozen or more blatant misinterpretations and flimsy accusations. I've literally never seen anything like it, and I hope I never do again.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Brinniel

Well, I suspected Aganzir yesterDay before Volo was a known innocent and I still suspect her toDay. I see nothing wrong with using a known innocent's quote to support my feelings about another player. Of course, Volo could easily be wrong with her, but as I do suspect Aganzir I think he may be onto something...


Mommy dearest, as determined as you are to lynch tp, do you have thoughts on others as well? I'm just curious...

Explanation... but is it genuine? I said before, sis, I am starting to wonder about your intentions. Don't you know anything about our father's, sister's and grandfather's deaths?

Although what you say to Mom has its value. Mom, don't get too fixed on one person...

Originally Posted by Lhunardawen

Eonwe's first post: Okay, that was really weird. Misplaced. This isn't an RPG, not even an RPG-style game. Why anyone would spend time and effort crafting such a post instead of arguing with someone or repeating obvious points or indulging in far-fetched speculation is beyond me. It almost makes me suspicious of myself for finding it suspicious.

He's either a bored innocent, a clueless innocent, or a wolf wanting to make his presence known but not wanting to give us something to chew on about himself. I don't think the EW would ask him to do that, though - that would be silly.

This is normal. I remember people who used to do that, simply because they came late, saw a thread full of posts, posted a poem and only then did something else. Although, I don't deny that other things about Eönwë, like his voting, which has been questioned before, are odd (in contrary to this).

Originally Posted by Brinniel

Goodness...I never noticed that quote before. Thanks for pointing it out, Roa. Flip-flopping always causes me to raise an eyebrow, especially after there's been increasing pressure placed on the flip-flopper.

Again! It seems so nice-ish that it really makes me wonder (...tum, tum, tum... and it makes me wonder... Ooooh yeah yeah...)

Sorry mum, I think I'm gonna make our family even thinner toDay.

Originally Posted by the phantom

Post coming in a few minutes. I'll answer every single question raised.

Nooo! Not again... I thought he's sleeping already... someone hit him overhead... one doesn't have to wonder then that there is one page more...

Hooray! It's my post already! Fantastic! (now will refresh... "loading, please wait")

Originally Posted by the phantom

Sorry that took up so much space, Legate. The whole thing is probably a bore to read and is simply a distraction and doesn't help us find WWs or the EW one little bit. But I just couldn't allow Roa to get away with posting an attack that contained a dozen or more blatant misinterpretations and flimsy accusations. I've literally never seen anything like it, and I hope I never do again.

It's okay. And good, it was only my post there (sorry for its length, but I tried my best, and then, it's just one post... so you have it all together in one place, with this one).

I'm going to re-read the Roa-phantom arguments since the bottom of page 8 separately, really not in the mood for that, and it's internal between the two of them.

Yippiee! Caught up.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

And just a minor note on my participation toDay. I will be around for about an hour for now and try to keep up-to-date. Then I should be away and get back about three hours before the DL. I hope it's gonna be readable (i.e. possible to read until the DL). Hmm... I would like to look at Brinn's posts maybe... all right, whatever.

[Cailín]

Aye, I know that there's probably not a lot to gain from looking at Volo and Kitanna's posts. I had thought that it might be favourable to Aganzir and Mormegil but then I realised the wolves probably won't be a cohesive team.

This Roa/phantom spat seems more than likely two proud ordos going at it. Everyone try not to get too focused on that.

Lhuna makes a fair bit of sense to me. Clever girl, always proud of her...

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Cailín

This Roa/phantom spat seems more than likely two proud ordos going at it. Everyone try not to get too focused on that.

Really? I'm fairly certain that one of them has to be a wolf...I just haven't decided which one.

[Cailín]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

Really? I'm fairly certain that one of them has to be a wolf...I just haven't decided which one.

Are you for real, Gwathagor? What makes it certain that one has to be a wolf? The fact that they are arguing? That you can't decide whose side you are on, yet whoever ends up less persuasive to you is a wolf, is really quite odd reasoning.

[A Little Green]

Huh. It took me well past an hour to read through toDay's posts alone.

First of all, the phantom irritates me. He seems to play for himself and not for the village (or the wolves, for that matter). I, like many others, don't like the way he draws attention to himself. The thing is, I have no idea what he might be. One possibility is that he applied to be a wizard but didn't get the role, and now is just frustrated and therefore acts in his egoistic manner. One thing above others troubles me in him, and that's the fact that he keeps threatening people. The Lhuna thing I could have passed, but consider this one:

Originally Posted by tp

If you want to continue suspecting me, Roa, go ahead, but please let this particular issue go. I literally find it insulting that someone would think I would make a decision like that- pass up several nights of free kills for a completely unnecessary stunt. So help me but if you continue on this I might just try and get you lynched despite the fact that I think you're probably innocent.

Now what the heck is this about? "If you go on suspecting me, I'll have you lynched even though I think you are innocent!" ?

Other than that, I don't like the casting of random or unreasoned votes yesterDay and not explaining them. I'd still like an explanation from Gwath as I voted him yesterDay because of his suspicious behaviour, a great part of which was his completely unreasoned vote.

Roa puzzles me. I think she's been speaking very much sense in her earlier posts toDay (especially 314 and 319), but I'm slightly worried about her concentrating on one person only.

I'll be back later, I've got to go now - reading through the thread took me much more time than I anticipated.


EDIT: x-ed with Lhuna, Cailín and Brinn

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

BRINNIEL YESTERDAY (sounds like a newspaper title):

#18
Some starting banter, quite usual. Only, I want to point out - already here starts some pattern which follows Brinn all the game. Things like "ooh my head hurts of all those possibilities what can happen overnight". "Ooh thanks Roa for pointing it out". "Ooh I am so nice and confused". The question is - and I can't answer it now - whether it's innocentish behavior for her or not.

#49
Says quite plainly "so we know there AREN'T connections between the wolves", however finishing the sentence with more vague "as they probably don't know of each other". Then she says we should look for connection between EW and the Wolves (how, may I ask?).

Otherwise, makes sense... this is just to question.

#170
Some problem with Nerwen who kind of accused her... mentions some people, more or less saying thigs I believe logical... mentioning both Volo (that his slip "we wolves" has no value) and Kitanna (saying to think her innocentish). This itself, particularly in this game, does not mean anything...

Only, kind of odd is her excusing of morm's vote for herself, or how it should be said. "He voted me, but I can understand him..." Hmph.

Already mentions Aganzir as one she does not like the most; in the end she will indeed vote for her.

#176
Worries about spreading the voting. Ha, ha, ha...

#195
Continues going through her opinions on different people. Seems undecisive still, somewhat.

#211
Mentions Aganzir as possibility for an EW, but (rightfully, I think) says this is no time to discuss on Wizards (it was short before DL); mentions bandwagons as dangerous, is particularly worried about Nerwen bandwagon appearing out of the blue.

#222
Votes Aganzir.

#232
Wonders about my "to vote or not to vote"... Understandable.

#235
Replies to Dury who asked her why all of sudden vote Aganzir, by saying she wanted to vote her before, which is true.

BRINNIEL TODAY (this sounds like a newspaper name):

#245
Voting list...

Doesn't like bandwagons... thinks Volo and Kitanna were killed for not being suspicious...

#275
This is where it actually starts to seem a little weird.

Originally Posted by Brinniel

I already mentioned my thoughts on Cailin and I do think she's a bit suspicious. And it doesn't help now that Nerwen's been proven innocent.

It doesn't help, but it should not make it worse as well - it you said yesterday that the wolves don't know each other, so they should have as much chance to lynch an innocent as the ordos do, not?

#300
That thing with Volo I mentioned above... Though after I read through all, it does not look THAT bad... I don't know. It may be that Brinn just found a nice formulation on which grounds to suspect Aganzir, what more, to base it on the thoughts of a known Seer... but... then, would a Wolf act like that? Shielding herself with a Seer? Seeriously? Isn't it kinda too... obvious? Hm. Rationally, I am inclined to think this less sinister than I thought at first. Though on the basis of the feelings, there's still something in the post which does not sit well with me.

Besides that, in her posts she mentions votes she does think suspicious or odd, nothing that much strange on that.

#324
Replies to Durelin... who apparently keeps questioning her (this is for the second time! Cf. above the thing about Brinn's vote). This question is concerning her quote about Volo, more or less the thing I said about that. Brinn replies in the way I would expect, and that is normal. Then talks to Roa not to focus solely on phantom...

#326
Thoughts on Roa-phantom debate. Again, the "thanks Roa..." thing I mentioned before. Saying what she doesn't like about tp. And then, asking if the EW could not instruct the Wolves not to vote, which she immediately discards.

#328
Mentions watching the phantom-Roa thing.

All in all, Brinn:

1) Seems indecisive yesterDay, but more confident toDay.
2) Does not look as bad as I thought. The things are just minor and the only ones.
3) Otherwise, she looks reasonable and I can relate to, or at least understand lot of what she has to say.
4) I am letting her down on my suspicious list.

EDIT: x-ed since my last post

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Brinniel

Funny you say that 'lil bro as your post is rather lengthy itself...

Hey, I already apologized for that, but, like I said, it's one post which sums up all the lengthy posts before me

Originally Posted by Brinn

So, suddenly being nice equals wolf?

No, but trying to appear too nice could. Which is what I meant by it.

But when I already have you here, I see you again mentioned the thing that the wolves probably don't know each other in your last post - I would like you to answer then my question I outlined while going through your posts: concerning the only one of your posts I quoted, #275. So what did you think back then? If the wolves don't know each other, is there any difference if the one who voted Nerwen was a Wolf or not?

LG... seems to go with the usual patterns of things, sort of "going with the crowd". In fact all she says has been here before... which of course in a village like this is not to wonder... but I would like to see more of her (words which bear great danger, especially in this situation!).

[Brinniel]

phantom, what are you doing still up? ...Or rather...were (you're last post was sometime ago, so I'm sure you're in bed now). But still you last posted after 3am (and that's my time). Wait a minute...what am I doing still up? It's almost 5am. Curse you WW!!

Originally Posted by Legate

Says quite plainly "so we know there AREN'T connections between the wolves", however finishing the sentence with more vague "as they probably don't know of each other". Then she says we should look for connection between EW and the Wolves (how, may I ask?).

I think I already answered this in that same post, but anyway... We look for a connection between wolves and the EW by lynching a wolf, then analysing reasons why an EW would scry that player and who that possibly could be. That's the best way I can think of doing it...other than by suspicious behaviour.

Originally Posted by Legate

It doesn't help, but it should not make it worse as well - it you said yesterday that the wolves don't know each other, so they should have as much chance to lynch an innocent as the ordos do, not?

You're right...I wasn't thinking about that when I wrote it. My bad.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

I know I'm probably contradicting myself now, but his vote is one of those easy, suspicious things a wolf would love to accuse of *coughBrinncough*

Huh, why me? And you are talking about Legate, right?

It's obviously very late so I should get to bed...

Some last quick thoughts:

I still find Aganzir suspicious..

YesterDay I thought Cailin was suspicious, but I honestly haven't looked too much at toDay's posts.

I'm still baffled by the Roa/phantom row...

People I want to take a closer look at tomorrow: Mac, Legate, Durelin, Cailin. Of course that can change seeing as their will be most certainly a large flood of posts by the time I return.

I would like to see the people who vote randomly or bandwagoned with little or no explanation explain themselves...

I think that's all for now. I'll try to get up a little earlier tomorrow, but no guarantee...I just can't wake up to my alarm anymore.

[Lhunardawen]

Okay, now my head aches. And you just lynched our healer yesterDay. Thanks a lot, guys. She hasn't even taught me how to heal headaches yet.

Maybe getting off the computer will help. But before I leave:

++MACALAURE

About the phantom-Roa row, heaven forbid we're looking at an EW and a wolf going at each other as planned! Because Roa, I deeply appreciate all your input as the former EW, but I wouldn't put it past you to be offering your thoughts to us and doing completely different things. You can pull that off. And you did do some serious misinterpretation of some of the phantom's posts.

But right now I'm quite convinced that you're both innocent, just both unfortunately having strong personalities. Now it's about time the village turns its eyes elsewhere.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Hm hm hmm... All right folks, like I said, I am going now... and will be back some three hours before DL. I hope not longer! In any case, see you before the DL.

Good luck to the good side... and whoever is on that side at the moment. Stay sharp!

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

Other than that, I don't like the casting of random or unreasoned votes yesterDay and not explaining them. I'd still like an explanation from Gwath as I voted him yesterDay because of his suspicious behaviour, a great part of which was his completely unreasoned vote.

Sorry. I voted for sally for the suspicions outlined in my first post toDay, basiucally because her posting style yesterDay seemed markedly subdued from her usual craziness, and almost compromising in places. YesterDay, mind you. She doesn't seem to be doing it toDay.

[Gwathagor]

Man! Ok, I have to vote within the next 40 minutes...

[Gwathagor]

I would like to vote for either tp or Roa. But I can't decide which one is the wolf, so I am going to hold off casting judgement regarding that particular brawl until tomorrow.

Eonwe's vote against tp yesterDay still looks suspicious, but as has been pointed out, he is new. So he gets another day from me as well.

sally has ceased behaving oddly, so I can't justify voting against her. Darn.

So:

++Lalaith

I have to go do the dishes, but here's my explanation: her friendly tone looks to me like a facade which is betrayed by the unhelpful nature of her posts. I'll elaborate later if I have time.....

[Kath]

Day 1, page 1:

Volo - I think it's been decided now that the Seer didn't get a dream on Night 1 which does mean I don't have to search for clues. From his first post I can see little in the way of clues that he's the Seer at all.

Shasta - IC. Finally something of substance even if it is a rule clarification. From what I recall of the last game I think this is right, that EW and wolves communicate through the mod, but that doesn't hamper communication in any way if the EW wants it.

Agan - IC.

Kitanna - IC.

Ka - IC. Post 35, would you mind re-explaining it as I don't really get what you meant. It looks interesting but I can't quite figure it out. Oh! Ignore that, you do explain. Again there I'm taking the view that if you've chosen wolves you think they're going to be good and so you don't really need to control them in that way.

Roa - IC. Takes the complete opposite end of the stick to phantom, saying we must get wolves. Yes true, but pegging the EW would be fantastic. I think they're both arguing for the same thing just from opposing views. Argues that we do need to catch wolves. Claims phantom is deliberately giving out false information which I don't think is the case. Gets that the EW is important but thinks focusing on the wolves is more effective.

phantom - a lot of statistics. Said that we need to find a way to rank the likelihood of those who might be the EW, yet much of his argument with Roa toDay revolved around that fact that this wasn't done. This may be due to those two concentrating on every little mention by the other and maybe we should come back to this. Cailin tried it as I recall, but got pretty much everyone down as evil! We might have to wait til we've had some more information for that to be worthwhile though. To be fair to Roa I don't like how he downplays the serious nature of the wolves. I think it imperative that we aim to find any evil roles, whether they be found through connections (unlikely) or other methods. Has a point about not discussing possible werewolf tactics, in fact doing that generally gets you suspected.

Brinn - a little over the top with 'how much does my head hurt' comments. It's a bit 'oh poor me' and Brinn isn't usually like that. But then, this game is hell on your head.

Durelin - IC.

Sally - IC. Interesting idea that the EW might ask their wolves to play differently but I think it unlikely. The EW set out a list of wolves, so people they thought would be able to pull it off in this game, therefore whichever of those people ended up as wolves the EW shouldn't need their playing style to be different.

Lalaith - IC, though a mention of Roa and phantom's argument.

morm - agrees with phantom that the EW is the key but as he is also trying to figure out who might be wolvish or not (phantom in this case) he seems to take more of a midpoint between Roa and phantom. Thinks Brinn suspicious.

[Brinniel]

Originally Posted by phantom

I was pointing out that we don't truly have normal WWs in this village because they don't know each other. Therefore normal means of WW hunting cannot be used.

I disagree. Just because the wolves don't know each other doesn't mean we can find them by normal means. You can't exactly base a suspicion off one player compared to their connections to another player until you have at least one known wolf in a typical game. So how do we catch the first wolf typically? We lynch based on what we deem as suspicious behaviour. And that's how we should play now.

Originally Posted by phantom

How is it a shift? I'm still holding to my guns that the EW is more important than anything else. I'm just trying to get the ones who are overly concerned about WWs on board with me, trying to get them to realize that even trying to gun for the EW they stand just as good a chance of hitting a WW since no one has any clue who one is anyway on Day 1.

Okay, I accept that explanation.

Originally Posted by phantom

Oh, please... you are really being thick now. I suppose you can't think of any possible reason why I'd ask Lommy and Agan about each other, or Mac and Rikae about each other.

Oh yeah, that's right- they know each other in real life!

But I don't think they're opinions of one another should matter anymore than anyone else's. Just because they know each other in RL doesn't always mean they'll have better judgements.

Originally Posted by Legate

If it's not you, sis...

Or you!

Originally Posted by Legate

People, it's nice to read, but post at least shorter posts, like the ones before 299... that was so nice and smooth and fast to read!

Funny you say that 'lil bro as your post is rather lengthy itself...

Originally Posted by Legate

Thank Eru! ; ) : D

NOOOO! THERE IS ANOTHER PAGE ALREADY!!!

AND A LONG ONE, TOO!!! NOOO!!! (It must have been there already when I refreshed! AAARGH!!!)

I AM GOING TO POST. NOW. I HAVE ENOUGH OF YOU.

*chuckles* You must be just as slow of a poster as me.

Originally Posted by Legate

Again! It seems so nice-ish that it really makes me wonder

So, suddenly being nice equals wolf?