Do Elves BURY their dead?

[Eönwë]

Alatar, are you suggesting that elves feed their trees off'f the nutrients of dead people?

[alatar]

And just where would you think those nutrients come from? Circle of life and all of that. And not that this is conclusive evidence, but note the correlation between elven deaths and the size of forests. Wasn't the Old Forest much larger in the past, back after the days of Nirnaeth Arnoediad? By the end of the Third Age the elven losses were slight, and the size of Mirkwood and Fangorn significantly smaller. Hmmm...just what was in the box Sam got from Galadriel?

P.S. It's even more probable. When the Fell Beast dies, doesn't it leave a 'stain' where nothing grows? Aren't there other examples where evil creatures die and their rot becomes a herbicide? Now, take something that spent some time in the Blessed Realm. How much more likely would its 'dust' impart some good effect on whatever was grown from it?

2+2=22

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

It has always seemed to me that the Elves tend to bury their dead near the spot where they fell (if possible), and do not have the mortal custom of erecting memorials on the site. Perhaps this is because of the Elves' seemingly greater connection to the natural world, perhaps it's because of their knowledge that they may be reincarnated, thus making the body less important than the spirit. I'm currently on vacation, so I don't have any of my books with me (and thus I'm taking this from memory), but I think that the difference between Elves and Men concerning the raising of memorials to the dead is made rather clear by Faramir when he tells Frodo and Sam of Gondor and its people, how they have fallen into the habit of constructing more lavish houses for the dead than for the living, dwelling too much upon past glories. This may be an "affliction," if you will, of living in mortal lands, where all things eventually die or fade. The Elvish "memorials" I can recall are those for places which their builders believed they would not see again because of the Ban: Turgon's Gondolin (fashioned after Tirion) and Galadriel's Lothlorien (fashioned, if not after Lorien in Valinor, then after the West itself, where the trees and grass did not fade and die).

Hmm, I'm rambling. Too much fresh air and sunshine.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by alatar

And just where would you think those nutrients come from? Circle of life and all of that. And not that this is conclusive evidence, but note the correlation between elven deaths and the size of forests. Wasn't the Old Forest much larger in the past, back after the days of Nirnaeth Arnoediad? By the end of the Third Age the elven losses were slight, and the size of Mirkwood and Fangorn significantly smaller. Hmmm...just what was in the box Sam got from Galadriel?

P.S. It's even more probable. When the Fell Beast dies, doesn't it leave a 'stain' where nothing grows? Aren't there other examples where evil creatures die and their rot becomes a herbicide? Now, take something that spent some time in the Blessed Realm. How much more likely would its 'dust' impart some good effect on whatever was grown from it?

2+2=22

Do the Elves actually have enough corpses to sustain all those crops? I mean, that works well for a fruit tree, maybe, but it won't take care of an orchard, and you'd need a whole cemetery to grow grain for lembas. Sure, after the Last Alliance there might have been a burst of Elven agriculture, but there would not have been a good supply of fertilizer thereafter.

Furthermore, by implication you are suggesting that the food in the Blessed Realm was nothing as good as the stuff out of Rivendell, since the corpse supply there was precisely two... Míriel and Finwë.

And... what about the Wandering Companies? If someone dies, do they haul the corpse back to the Grey Havens for fertilizer?

Very importantly:

What about the Dead Marshes? Are you suggesting there's some really awesome watercress waiting to be harvested there?

[Morthoron]

I think that, given every referenced Elvish burial was in a mound (and that the scrupulous and reverent Dunedain followed suit -- that is until they became decadent and eschewed elvish custom by erecting great stone tombs and effigies), and additionally that no other method of elvish funerary internment was mentioned by Tolkien (that I can find in any case), it is certainly reasonable to assume that burial in the ground was their custom. They did not erect funeral pyres, they did not mummify, and it certainly seems rather beastly (and unelvish in an artistic sense) that they just left corpses of their kin where they lay to be gnawed and dismembered by carrion.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Do the Elves actually have enough corpses to sustain all those crops? I mean, that works well for a fruit tree, maybe, but it won't take care of an orchard, and you'd need a whole cemetery to grow grain for lembas. Sure, after the Last Alliance there might have been a burst of Elven agriculture, but there would not have been a good supply of fertilizer thereafter.

It's been said that every grain/bit/speck has some virtue. Sam didn't need to bury an elf for each tree he planted when repairing the Shire after Sharkey's ruin and ruining. He used one bit per planting. Assume now you have much much more. Also, what virtue resides within elven atoms, or any bits that may flake on in the normal course of the day? Maybe singing expels something of the elf that enhanced the receiver of the sound due to some transfer of physical matter from the elf.

This isn't to say that elven agriculture used only the dead to grow their crops. They also had a deep understanding of nature, and surely didn't have to deal with some natural events that plagued man, like blight. The elves probably taught the locusts to dance and sing.

Furthermore, by implication you are suggesting that the food in the Blessed Realm was nothing as good as the stuff out of Rivendell, since the corpse supply there was precisely two... Míriel and Finwë.

Must be why there were so few feast days...

Let's walk through this. Humans, as organic beings, can be used as fertilizer (although I would be worried about the concentration of prions in the food supply). Why not then elves? If their bodies are 'purer' and more aligned to nature, why couldn't they be a superior source of fertilizer? Those elves that made the journey West and back again carry the light of Aman on their faces or some other mark of the experience. Couldn't these elves contain more 'energy' that, when turned into fertilizer, be transferred into the recipient organism?

Those that lived in Aman, like elsewhere, could use the fallen as fertilizer, but seemingly in Paradise nothing rots, and so how one gets nitrogen back into the soil is beyond science. Presumably the plant life there springs from the ground that is fertilized by the same energy that is transferred the those elves that live there. Telperion and Laurelin must have added to the radiations of the place, allowing life to grow. When these died, their fruits were used to light the world - more radiation - though obviously less than would be available from the live trees.

Who understands the works of Yavanna?

And... what about the Wandering Companies? If someone dies, do they haul the corpse back to the Grey Havens for fertilizer?

Maybe these corpses explain seemingly random copses.

Very importantly:

What about the Dead Marshes? Are you suggesting there's some really awesome watercress waiting to be harvested there?

The best cress!

But you have to factor in the taint of the evil that's in those marshes. And though presumably ugly, methinks that bogs and marshes teem with life - maybe more life per cubic inch than in the forest - though it might not be of any use to elves or men.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Oh, another reference- in the description of the Dead Marshes, it is said that the expanding swamp crept over the *graves* from the Battle of the Morannon- and clearly those interred included Elves.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Oh, another reference- in the description of the Dead Marshes, it is said that the expanding swamp crept over the *graves* from the Battle of the Morannon- and clearly those interred included Elves.

Were the fallen 'buried' intentionally, or did that just happen to be their fate?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I think the passage just says 'graves'- but ordinarily a grave is something dug intentionally, or in any event not the same as just leaving the lyin' around. Since the Alliance won, I can't imagine them doing that with the fallen, anyway.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Do the Elves actually have enough corpses to sustain all those crops?

Well ,if you look at Sam, you only need very little (one grain, or something) to grow whole trees, and its only a one time thing as well.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by alatar

When the Fell Beast dies, doesn't it leave a 'stain' where nothing grows? Aren't there other examples where evil creatures die and their rot becomes a herbicide? Now, take something that spent some time in the Blessed Realm. How much more likely would its 'dust' impart some good effect on whatever was grown from it?

And "The grass grew long on Snowmane's Howe" or whatever the exact quote was.

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Do the Elves actually have enough corpses to sustain all those crops? I mean, that works well for a fruit tree, maybe, but it won't take care of an orchard, and you'd need a whole cemetery to grow grain for lembas. Sure, after the Last Alliance there might have been a burst of Elven agriculture, but there would not have been a good supply of fertilizer thereafter.

Maybe they dried all the corpses, like in the box Galadriel gave to Sam, so they would last longer. In fact, maybe the last remains of someone like Gil-Galad were in that box that was given to sam. Eurgh!