Do Elves BURY their dead?
 

Please ignore the typo in the similar thread title.

What would happen with all the Elves killed at the Battle of the Five Armies? Are they buried in the ground? Mounds? Burned in pyres?

Burial mounds are evident in many passages of the Silmarillion. Glorfindel's mound is near the pass where he fell with the Balrog, then of course there is Haudh-en-Elleth wherein Finduilas was buried. Also, the Elves of Doriath buried Turin in a mound, and there is the mound of dead Eldar and Edain slain at the Battle of Unnumbered Tears (in Anfauglith if I remember correctly). I'm at work, but that's what I can recall off-hand.

Morthoron speaks well. However I am not sure whether a band of Elves would be buried in the proximity to the Mountain. Is there told whether the Elves were buried (or whatever) in the place? I guess not. For me, it will seem logical that the dead Elves were first carried to Mirkwood (however many there were), and "buried" there. I say "buried" because I am not sure, however some mounds would make sense. I would imagine it the way that on some beautiful sun- or in the night moonlit glade in the proximity of Thranduil's halls, there is Haudh-en... wait, it would probably have to be in the language of the Wood-Elves... well, never mind, simply some Hill of Slain in the Battle of the Five Armies, a place often visited by the friends and relatives of the dead Elves.

I have been pondering this because I have an elvish corpse to dispose of in a RPG (though I am going with the possibly uncanonical wished of the player concerned for that and cremating him).

I don't know whether it is one of the latent Catholic elements in the works (The Vatican only relaxed its ban on cremation in 1967) but cremation is seldom the fate of good characters (the burned dwarves of Nanduhirion being the exception, and presumably Gil Galad and Elendil if they were frazzled in combat with Sauron). Good characters get buried in grave or tomb. There was quite a bit about death customs in the discussion of the Breaking of the Fellowship episode of the Radio Series which might interest those not otherwise interested in that thread.

However I am sure I read somewhere in Home that an Elvish body even unburied would go to dust quickly - I think it is on the development of the idea of Elvish rebirth. However some bodies (those of Luthien & Miriel for example) do not decompose - though clearly those are both unusual circumstances.

The different relationship with elves of body and soul - and indeed the different relationship with death probably affects the funeral rites. I imagine that there might be a great variance between the Exiled Noldor (for whom the Valar and Valinor were a matter of fact not faith - as Terry Pratchett said about the discworld gods, saying they believed in them would be like us saying we believed in the postman, the Sindar who had a lesser immediate experience, and the Silvan elves for whom such things are not real in the same way - think of Haldir's conversation with Merry. Presumably the elves of Thranduil, not living under the rule of a living link with Valinor found the the idea of passing West as even more remote and unappealing. Legolas implies that he has interpreted Galadriel's message as "speaking of his death".

Therefore it is likely that the Silvan elves of Mirkwood might regard death more seriously than say the Noldor and consequently have the most elaborate funeral rites since the death would seem more drastic.

I cannot find a reference to a non-burial funeral (including cairns and mounds with graves) Some are more elaborate than others - Beleg is buried in a shallow grave. The graves seem to hold a residual power. Glorfindel's cairn in a barren landscape yields grass and the yellow flowers enblematic of his house while "the green grave of Finrod.. remained inviolate, until the land was changed... but Finrod walks with Finarfin, his father beneath the trees in Eldamar".

Just for completeness' sake, add also Turgon burying his father's body after Thorondor rescued it from Morgoth.

Tolkien, good Catholic that he was, apparently found cremation distasteful- note that Gandalf charges Denethor with imitating the 'heathen' kings.

Thanks William. :D Heathen is an interesting choice of word for ME (as is Eomer's repeated us of devilry). It is interest that in their earnestness not to leave Boromir lying like carrion, cremation is not raised as a possibility. Obviously there were no doubt good reasons why raising a great fire would not be the best idea but it is not even recognised as a possibility.

A final point to legate is that it was customary until very recently that the war dead were buried near where they fell. I say customary but the fact is that do do otherwise would have been impossible. The British only started repatriating their War dead in 1982 (within my memory) with the fallen of the Falklands War, and this was not automatic, but offered if the families wished it and not all accepted. While obviously there has been progess in transport and refrigeration the main issue is numbers. We lost 255 in the Falklands, a number which has yet to be matched I think by fatalities in both Gulf wars but nearly 20,000 in just one day at the Battle of the Somme. I suppose it is possible that Thranduil might have taken his dead back but I think Theoden, is the only case of of a body being repatriated, and he was a king - and it was possible to remove his body to the city immediately. His lords lie "under grass in Gondor". I think Eomer's eored buried their dead from the battle with the orcs at the scene, even in their own land.

Considering the number of elven fallen, where exactly are all of these cemeteries? I know that the Dead Marshes is one such place, but with the gazillions of elves that lost their lives to Morgoth and Sauron (even with lands broken and reformed), you'd think that there'd be some mention of such places in the texts.

Was Hollin such a place? Was it Aragorn that said something like, "The elves have to be gone a long time for the land to forget them," meaning that their dust (beyond their living presence) did something to the land as well.

Me? I'm thinking it's more like in video games where the fallen fade away after some time, leaving whatever artifacts that they carried behind. Great and important (and unusual) persons are 'buried' in the sense that their remains are interred when possible, but for the most part it's just a marker/symbol/memorial for the fallen.

Anyway, don't thheir bodies "fade to dust..quickly" (thats a paraphrase by the way) or something like that. That would explain the non-existent demand for cemetaries.

Other than Turgon/Fingolfin and Glorfindel, are there many other examples of elves burying elves? Just, from the examples suggested by Mithalwen, Finduilas was buried by Dorlas and the men of Brethil, Haudh-en-Ndengin was raised by Orcs following the Nirnaeth, and while Turin was buried by Mablung and his Grey Elves, it could it be argued that he was doing it after the manner of Turins own kin?
(obviously, for the benefit of this topic, the same could be argued about the men of Brethil's burial of Finduilas! Lol)

I belive that they must have burried their dead or at least have had some form of tradition for what to do with the dead, since the elves somewhat resembles men.

One of the first signs of human activity other than what remains from hunting and so forth is human burrials, we don't know why our ancestors burried their dead but they did.

It could be that it was because they did not like leaving their kin to be eaten by animals, I am quite sure that elves would feel the same way.

Since the elves could be seen at the deadmarshes I take that they did not turn to dust when dead. . .if they did it would have meant that the Nirnaeth Arnoediad would have been a living hell for people with dust allergies and a sourse to extreme coughing for the rest of the participants.

Anyways, I don't seem to remember any massive graveyards of men ever being mentioned. . .if they are then please correct me. Surely men was burried even though the sites is not pointed out to us,

Rath Dinen, the Silent Street in Minas Tirith, was probably the most famous place of internment for the race of Men (next to the Barrow Downs, of course). It would seem those of Numenorean descent were drawn to ornate entombment, most likely in envy of elvish immortality. Then, of course, there are the burial mounds of the Rohirrim, a direct link to Sutton Hoo and other such mounds that mark early Anglo-Saxon (and directly, their Norse/Germanic heritage) burial rites.

Of course it could be argued that the whole Rath Dinene/Silent street area is a massive complex, but it is still a relatively small portion of the dead who dwells here and only from the ruling class.

The same goes for the Rohiric mounds and even the Barrow-Downs. . .

I am quite sure that men just not turn into dust or fade away very quickly, so how do we explain this lack of graveyards?

I think it was just not important enough to make the books, if Tolkien was to describe every single aspect of every culture in Middle-Earth it would be too great a project. (and if then end result would probably not be the best read ever)

On the lack of cemetaries in ME
 

The answer to why there are so few graves in ME and they all seem to belong to the noble and important is very, very simple, they were the only ones ALLOWED such a privalege. The Concept of a grave as we now now it, that of a spot that a person is interred FOREVER, is a very, very new concept, even in the western world (started around the 18th-19th century, I belive). Prior to that waht happened to most people was a more temporary affair. the Body was buried with a marker of usuallly wood (NOT stone). after a period of time (3-5 years in some areas up to 20 in others) the grave was dug up, and any bones remaining were deposited in mass ossuary (sometimes) or discarded (more often) along with the marker (assuming it had not already rotted away) and the space was re-used for another burial (remember the gravedigger's scene in Hamlet. The ronly people who were allowed such luxuries as a permanent resting place tened to be the upper classes most of whom interred thier dead in family crypts or catacombs which were sometimes but not alaways located under the actual houses the familes lived in. Under the floors of churches was another popular place for the rich to be buried (Westminster Abbey is a good example of this) There are even some very famous chuches which decorated thier interiors with mosaics made from the bones of those buried within thier walls.) In having so few permanet graves Tolkein is just adhering to the historical record.

I think allergies would be the last of anyone's worries at the Nirnaieth Rune ;)

Would the elves, who did not die except in exceptional cases (battle, grief, bad hair day) even bother with developing extensive burial procedures?

And surely a rotting elven corpse would smell just as sweet. ;)

In view of Tolkien's background in Anglo-Saxon studies, I believe he adhered to the fundamental practices of that society, and of other Norse and Germanic folk, which would not include disinternment and placing of bones in an Ossuary. Looking at common Viking practices, for instance, there are many cemeteries scattered across Sweden, Norway and Denmark where non-upper class folk were permanently buried. This goes for Viking settlements in Greenland and the New World as well.

The reason Tolkien only mentions Rath Dinen, the Rohirrim's mounds and the Barrow Downs (site of Dunedain burials), all of which hold lordly tombs, is that they are germane to the story. Tolkien does not dwell much on commonality in any race, save perhaps the Hobbits. There is sparse information regarding anything outside of what happened with the ruling caste of any race; however, it is reasonable to assume that, as with most societies, the peasantry and bourgeois followed the norms of their lords.

I don't know where you are from in the western world, but around here we do not keep our graves forever. . .not unless we have relatives willing to pay for it or we are of the royal family. I think the general rule is that you keep you grave site for 25 years after your death, then it is up to relatives to decide if they want to keep it.

Anyways whether the graves only stood for a few years or permanently, it does not change the problem: Why don't we here about them?

I've thought a bit about this concept before, but I believe Morth and Rune sum it up rather well. For the sake of the story's development and to express the range of experiences of the fellowship and others I doubt Tolkien would have say, Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas stop after finding the Uruk-hai pire and exclaim, "Ah ha! You see now dear reader, a prime example of Rohirrim funerary customs with the fallen and their enemies- "

Though, I can't doubt that Tolkien did take some measures to show his readers some of the customs of the different peoples that the fellowship was made up of, and met with to distinguish differences from elves, hobbits, etc. Just that the story wouldn't be what it is if he set it up as a sociological safari, having characters explain their culture in the short time and immediate threat they had dealing with Sauron and others. Instead, we have the opportunity to read from an observational perspective and experience what the characters do, etc. Plus, as Rune has already said, it wouldn't be the same read if Tolkien tried to make a cultural encyclopedia within the story (and we wouldn't have much to talk about here as well...;)).

It's interesting though how much everday customs we know about Hobbits in and out of the Shire, but I can't remember whether Tolkien wrote about any of their funerary customs either... (!). Though, I think the wealth of information about them is relative to the spotlight in the story Frodo and his fellow kif and kin hold in the story.

~ Ka

Maybe the elves stick their dead in trees like some of the Native Americans...that would be funny. And fairly appropriate, too.
:)

I'm not sure how relevant it is, as its a tenuous link at best, but I noticed when re-reading 'Unfinished tales' today, in 'Tuor and his coming to Gondolin', it says the following;

"Now Tuor came to the ruins of a lost road, and he passed amid green mounds and leaning stones....." (upon his approach to Vinyamar)

As I said, its tenuous as best, but could these 'green mounds' be burial mounds perhaps? Or just mere grassy knolls!

If Elves did just "turn to dust" when they died, it seems that depending on the amount of time it took for them to...dissolve (for lack of a better word) the Elves would have a sort of memorial service, and then let the dust be scattered by the wind. It sounds appropriate to me, and accounts for the apparent lacking of burial mounds. If a body was just going to crumble into dust there would be no need for burial, as animals wouldn't be able to desecrate the remains and there would be no chance of disease from rotting flesh. Of course this is just pure opinion.:)

I do agree that it would be an exelent explanation to why there is so few elven graves to be found, but I think one has to take a broader view. This does not explain why there is relatively few human graves mentioned and while this is not part of the question, it might very well be part of the answer.

As I stated before there seems to be a clear tendency to Tolkien leaving burial rituals and such, exept for the ones for the nobility. . .which ofcourse is important for the stories.

Another thing is that if the elves did just turn to dust then there would be no reason at all to save Fingolfins body and give it a burrial.

On the Uruk-hai in Rohan:

Interesting that Tolkien usually associates cremation with 'carrion': Ugluk's band, the Witch-king's beast (whereas Snowmane was buried) and so on: the 'burned Dwarves' of Azanulbizar were considered in a way to have made a second sacrifice after death, so sorrowful were the survivors at being forced to take that option.

In Frank Herbert's Dune books, a organization of superwomen (the Bene Gesserit) bury their dead, when possible, under fruit trees. These women see the bodies of their Sisters as just so much dead organic matter as the fallen can live as memories in live Sisters, so no one is ever 'missed.' A body's a body, but the souls live on or something.

The more I thought on this, the more strange it sounded. Frank Herbert, being an ecologist, through his work had suggested it, and so it might not be just some fantasy writings. I presume that as these superwomen had the ability to protect themselves from diseases that the practice of placing dead bodies under food sources may be more plausible.

Would this then be possible with the elves, as they too would not carry diseases that could be retained in the food supply? Maybe that's why their food taste so good...;)

Alatar, are you suggesting that elves feed their trees off'f the nutrients of dead people?:eek:

And just where would you think those nutrients come from? Circle of life and all of that. And not that this is conclusive evidence, but note the correlation between elven deaths and the size of forests. Wasn't the Old Forest much larger in the past, back after the days of Nirnaeth Arnoediad? By the end of the Third Age the elven losses were slight, and the size of Mirkwood and Fangorn significantly smaller. Hmmm...just what was in the box Sam got from Galadriel? :eek:

P.S. It's even more probable. When the Fell Beast dies, doesn't it leave a 'stain' where nothing grows? Aren't there other examples where evil creatures die and their rot becomes a herbicide? Now, take something that spent some time in the Blessed Realm. How much more likely would its 'dust' impart some good effect on whatever was grown from it?

2+2=22

It has always seemed to me that the Elves tend to bury their dead near the spot where they fell (if possible), and do not have the mortal custom of erecting memorials on the site. Perhaps this is because of the Elves' seemingly greater connection to the natural world, perhaps it's because of their knowledge that they may be reincarnated, thus making the body less important than the spirit. I'm currently on vacation, so I don't have any of my books with me (and thus I'm taking this from memory), but I think that the difference between Elves and Men concerning the raising of memorials to the dead is made rather clear by Faramir when he tells Frodo and Sam of Gondor and its people, how they have fallen into the habit of constructing more lavish houses for the dead than for the living, dwelling too much upon past glories. This may be an "affliction," if you will, of living in mortal lands, where all things eventually die or fade. The Elvish "memorials" I can recall are those for places which their builders believed they would not see again because of the Ban: Turgon's Gondolin (fashioned after Tirion) and Galadriel's Lothlorien (fashioned, if not after Lorien in Valinor, then after the West itself, where the trees and grass did not fade and die).

Hmm, I'm rambling. Too much fresh air and sunshine. :)

Do the Elves actually have enough corpses to sustain all those crops? I mean, that works well for a fruit tree, maybe, but it won't take care of an orchard, and you'd need a whole cemetery to grow grain for lembas. Sure, after the Last Alliance there might have been a burst of Elven agriculture, but there would not have been a good supply of fertilizer thereafter.

Furthermore, by implication you are suggesting that the food in the Blessed Realm was nothing as good as the stuff out of Rivendell, since the corpse supply there was precisely two... Míriel and Finwë.

And... what about the Wandering Companies? If someone dies, do they haul the corpse back to the Grey Havens for fertilizer?

Very importantly:

What about the Dead Marshes? Are you suggesting there's some really awesome watercress waiting to be harvested there?

I think that, given every referenced Elvish burial was in a mound (and that the scrupulous and reverent Dunedain followed suit -- that is until they became decadent and eschewed elvish custom by erecting great stone tombs and effigies), and additionally that no other method of elvish funerary internment was mentioned by Tolkien (that I can find in any case), it is certainly reasonable to assume that burial in the ground was their custom. They did not erect funeral pyres, they did not mummify, and it certainly seems rather beastly (and unelvish in an artistic sense) that they just left corpses of their kin where they lay to be gnawed and dismembered by carrion.

And "The grass grew long on Snowmane's Howe" or whatever the exact quote was.

Maybe they dried all the corpses, like in the box Galadriel gave to Sam, so they would last longer. In fact, maybe the last remains of someone like Gil-Galad were in that box that was given to sam. Eurgh!:eek:

It's been said that every grain/bit/speck has some virtue. Sam didn't need to bury an elf for each tree he planted when repairing the Shire after Sharkey's ruin and ruining. He used one bit per planting. Assume now you have much much more. Also, what virtue resides within elven atoms, or any bits that may flake on in the normal course of the day? Maybe singing expels something of the elf that enhanced the receiver of the sound due to some transfer of physical matter from the elf. :p

This isn't to say that elven agriculture used only the dead to grow their crops. They also had a deep understanding of nature, and surely didn't have to deal with some natural events that plagued man, like blight. The elves probably taught the locusts to dance and sing.

Must be why there were so few feast days...;)

Let's walk through this. Humans, as organic beings, can be used as fertilizer (although I would be worried about the concentration of prions in the food supply). Why not then elves? If their bodies are 'purer' and more aligned to nature, why couldn't they be a superior source of fertilizer? Those elves that made the journey West and back again carry the light of Aman on their faces or some other mark of the experience. Couldn't these elves contain more 'energy' that, when turned into fertilizer, be transferred into the recipient organism?

Those that lived in Aman, like elsewhere, could use the fallen as fertilizer, but seemingly in Paradise nothing rots, and so how one gets nitrogen back into the soil is beyond science. Presumably the plant life there springs from the ground that is fertilized by the same energy that is transferred the those elves that live there. Telperion and Laurelin must have added to the radiations of the place, allowing life to grow. When these died, their fruits were used to light the world - more radiation - though obviously less than would be available from the live trees.

Who understands the works of Yavanna?

Maybe these corpses explain seemingly random copses.

The best cress! :D

But you have to factor in the taint of the evil that's in those marshes. And though presumably ugly, methinks that bogs and marshes teem with life - maybe more life per cubic inch than in the forest - though it might not be of any use to elves or men.

Oh, another reference- in the description of the Dead Marshes, it is said that the expanding swamp crept over the *graves* from the Battle of the Morannon- and clearly those interred included Elves.

Well ,if you look at Sam, you only need very little (one grain, or something) to grow whole trees, and its only a one time thing as well.

Were the fallen 'buried' intentionally, or did that just happen to be their fate?

I think the passage just says 'graves'- but ordinarily a grave is something dug intentionally, or in any event not the same as just leaving the lyin' around. Since the Alliance won, I can't imagine them doing that with the fallen, anyway.

What I meant was 'were some of these fallen buried by the war and not by their comrades?' Did some blast or quake or other calamity entomb these fallen so that their bodies ended up in the defile but not intentionally?

Yeah, I imagine thats what it alludes to, rather then them having been buried in the dead marshes. Its similar to the beginning of the Bragollach in the Silmarillion, when the Ard-galen becomes the Anfauglith when it says "many charred bones had their roofless grave there, as many of the Noldor perished in that burning". Their graves were where they fell, and I imagine that the Dead Marshes are a similar situation.