How many in Battle of 5 Armies?

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Wearing mail, no matter how well it is made, does not confer invincibility (and these Dwarves weren't all decked out in mithril). In fact, mail was eventually abandoned in favor of plate during the Middle-ages because it did not protect adequately enough.

We're not talking about the Middle Ages, we are talking about dwarves: the best smiths the world has ever known. Who knows some of them might have plate armor.

Formendacil, you make some excellent points! These dwarves that are fighting are also experienced battle hardened warriors from the War of Dwarves and Orcs; the men of Laketown, I imagine would be pretty green, and the elves might have some who survived from the Last Alliance. Everyone seemes to be under the assumption that the battle would commence as soon as the dwarves arrived, but what if they waited until dark. The dwarves can see very well in the dark and this might aid them in their attack, and they might also produce some mischief with their many skills with fire.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

We're not talking about the Middle Ages, we are talking about dwarves: the best smiths the world has ever known. Who knows some of them might have plate armor.

*shrugs* No references in any Tolkien book regarding Dwarves making plate. It just wasn't their bag. As far as being the 'best smiths the world has ever known', I believe you have to offer the Elves the begrudging title of the 'best archers the world has ever known', particularly with their advanced visual acuity and immortality (lots of time to practice hitting Dwarven targets).

I will not debate the anachronistic nature of Tolkien's work, but all weaponry and armaments tend toward the early Middle-ages (or Dark Ages, if you prefer). There are no hand-held crossbows (so perhaps previous to the Battle of Hastings), and there is chain mail, but virtually no plate whatsoever, save for helms and a few dubious accoutrements worn by the Knights of Dol Amroth. The time period of Anglo-Saxon England was very much Tolkien's forte; ergo, the weapons employed mirror his experience. Therefore, my references to medieval strategy are sound.

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

Formendacil, you make some excellent points! These dwarves that are fighting are also experienced battle hardened warriors from the War of Dwarves and Orcs; the men of Laketown, I imagine would be pretty green, and the elves might have some who survived from the Last Alliance. Everyone seemes to be under the assumption that the battle would commence as soon as the dwarves arrived, but what if they waited until dark. The dwarves can see very well in the dark and this might aid them in their attack, and they might also produce some mischief with their many skills with fire.

It is not an assumption, the battle did commence -- Elvish bows began twanging -- the Dwarves did not wait till nightfall. If Gandalf had not arrived and shown each side their predicament, the battle would have begun full force.

[The Sixth Wizard]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

One last historical example:

Agincourt - Henry V's small English force armed with longbows (not crossbows) and pikes devastates Charles the Good's much larger army of infantrymen and heavy knights.

There are a few key similarities with the Battle of 5 Armies: the elves use weapons similar to those use by the English, and the dwarves are heavily armored, like the French knights. However, there are several important differences as well. The elven host was at least twice as large as Dain's army, and the dwarves had no horses, which only further emphasized their natural lack of height, speed, and reach.

Sure, the elves use bows, but these were composite bows, not longbows which were much more resilient. And there is another key difference. The English archers and Agincourt and Crecy were highly skilled warriors fighting in formation, used to killing in open ground at range. The elves are most proficient fighting in a forest, i.e at short range, and so their bows would be short range bows, and probably not armour piercing, because an orc or other enemy wearing armour in a forest is impractical.

As an additional note: a documentary showed that the arrows used at Agincourt could not pierce French steel armour. Imagine the armour of the dwarves! The English relied on masses of arrows and arrow showers, along with the muddy terrain and confusion, to kill the French, which was not a factor at the Lonely Mountain.

So the elves did not have the training of the English in how to fire even when one could not see the enemy, they did not have the same armour piercing bows, they could not fire effectively at very long range and probably didn't fire in a heavy formation. We can not relate them at all to the English longbowmen and their feat.


Now as for the high ground, Dwarves are the most renowned for steadfastness. Climbing a hill is not a problem for them, as you can imagine the kind of crevasses and huge number of stairs there were to deal with in their mines.


One last thing; I would imagine the lack of horses in the dwarven ranks to be a benefit. These could not be shot out from under the riders if they didn't exist. Their opponents could not have many warhorses either, as one lived in a forest, the other lived on water. In the end, their armour would negate the bows of the elves somewhat, their strong constitution would give them the upper hand in melee, and their only weakness, cavalry, was nonexistant.


Personally, I do actually think that the allies would just win. But it would be a very, very tough fight. The dwarves would stand, maybe to the last man. And if they broke through to the mountain (or even made a dash for the front gate, which was not on high ground I believe) and around half made it inside, I believe the Elves and Men would retreat.

EDIT:

No references in any Tolkien book regarding Dwarves making plate.

That surprises me, as a dwarf in plate was always my mental picture. Perhaps I could revise what I said about the Elves' bows not being able to pierce dwarven armour.

[Gwathagor]

There are a lot of assumptions here I disagree with, so I won't enumerate them all.

I will, however, say this: it's already been pointed out that the Wood-elves had the experience and equipment for fighting in the open, as they participated in the Last Alliance. I assume that they would be superior bowmen than the English peasants in all respects: more naturally talented, better trained, better equipped, etc.

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

*shrugs* No references in any Tolkien book regarding Dwarves making plate. It just wasn't their bag.

I'm not so sure about that. If you take a close look at my avvie you can see that the artist, John Howe, saw Gimli as wearing plate body instead of mail.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

I'm not so sure about that. If you take a close look at my avvie you can see that the artist, John Howe, saw Gimli as wearing plate body instead of mail.

*shrugs again*

'The Great Plate Debate' has been argued on other fora (and perhaps buried here somewhere) for decades, costing countless lives and filling pages and pages with armorial minutiae.

Needless to say, the references to chain mail in Middle-earth are overwhelming; whereas the rarity of references to plate can be counted on the pudgy little fingers of a mithril-clad Hobbit.

As far as Gimli, please provide any reference to him wearing anything but mail, and I will gladly concede the point.