How many in Battle of 5 Armies?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by The Sixth Wizard

At formation- and mass-firing, yes, I'm offering that point of view. I also doubt elves grew massive shoulders like the men did, as elves seem too eternal to change in that way..

Hmmm...early 15th century Englishmen with massive shoulders? They'd be lucky to be 5 1/2 feet tall (vitamin deficiencies and poor diet, you know). I'm not trying to demean English soldiery, but English success in the 100 Years' War had more to do with French foolhardiness (and in some cases, abject stupidity), than English ability. Had the French encircled Henry V's starving army and just waited, there would be nothing for Shakespeare to crow about.

Originally Posted by The Sixth Wizard

I suppose I dislike the Paolini-esque view that elves are superior in every way to the other two races. I might even subconciously try to find weaknesses in their culture, such as their apparent aimlessness and their inability to change. Elves (in very broad terms) do not seem like the kind of creature to change in a hurry, or to fully commit to any course of action, as Dwarves do.

It is not merely a Paolini view, it is a Tolkien view. Please refer to Legolas of Mirkwood as far as visual acuity, hearing, heartiness (sloughing off a blizzard), and I believe Tolkien referred to him as being strong as a hale, young tree.

[Groin Redbeard]

Aha! I have found it: the reference to the dwarves wearing plate body armor. I found it in the Durin's Song, the one that Gimli sang in the mines of Khazadum. I've provided the entire verse where it is mentioned.

There hammer on the anvil smote,
There chisel clove, and graver wrote;
There forged was bladed and bound was hilt;
The delver mined the mason built.
There beryl, pearl, and opal pale
And metel wrought like fishes' mail,
Buckler and corslet, axe and sword,
And shining spears were laid in horde.

A corslet is defined by the Oxford English Dictionary as "a piece of defensive armour covering the body." In Ancient Greek armies, the 'hoplite', or heavy infantryman, wore a bell-shaped bronze corslet or 'cuirass', to protect his chest area. The corslet consisted of two plates connected on the sides via hinges and bronze pins. It was made up of a gorget, breast, back and tassets, full arms and gauntlets.

In the sixth verse it also mentions something like a mail shirt, but I just wanted to make the point that dwarves CAN wear plate armor.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

I will, however, say this: it's already been pointed out that the Wood-elves had the experience and equipment for fighting in the open, as they participated in the Last Alliance.

But this was at the end of the Second Age. I don't know about you, but after three thousand years I'd be a little rusty in fighting like that again.

[Groin Redbeard]

Here's a picture of the corslet armor. Greek Hoplite

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

Aha! I have found it: the reference to the dwarves wearing plate body armor. I found it in the Durin's Song, the one that Gimli sang in the mines of Khazadum. I've provided the entire verse where it is mentioned.



A corslet is defined by the Oxford English Dictionary as "a piece of defensive armour covering the body." In Ancient Greek armies, the 'hoplite', or heavy infantryman, wore a bell-shaped bronze corslet or 'cuirass', to protect his chest area. The corslet consisted of two plates connected on the sides via hinges and bronze pins. It was made up of a gorget, breast, back and tassets, full arms and gauntlets.

In the sixth verse it also mentions something like a mail shirt, but I just wanted to make the point that dwarves CAN wear plate armor.

Hate to burst your bubble, Groin, but if you do some more research (like Googling 'mail corslet') you will find countless references to mail or scale mail corslets (also pressed leather ones). Considering Beowulf was said to have a 'mail corslet', I would think that Tolkien was considering mail rather than plate (Anglo-Saxon point of reference as opposed to Greek, Roman or later medieval plate).

Davem --

I have seen those internet references regarding the incredible draw force of 14th-15th century longbows, and I won't debate them (although there are other 'internet experts' who disagree with the references you pointed out), but then again, that doesn't in any way discount the draw or pull of Elvish bows and their accuracy (given their physical gifts superior to Men as Tolkien pointed out). I have never argued the great impact of the archer in the 100 Year's War; however, in each of the England's greatest victories (Crecy, Poitier and Agincourt), it was lack of any coherent French strategy, and the congenitally moronic hubris of their knights (it must have been inherent, as it kept recurring) that caused their destruction. If they had not charged and merely waited on English supplies to run out, then King Phillip would not have run blindly alone through the night, King Jean would not have been captured and sent to London (rather the Black Prince may well have taken his turn in Paris), and Henry V's little army would have been starved into submission.

English fortunes declined readily enough when Charles V, in tandem with Du Guesclin, refused direct battle and took to scorched earth tactics. But then, Charles V was a tactician and not a preux chevalier like his father (who, of course, died in London for his inability to control his forces).

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Hate to burst your bubble, Groin, but if you do some more research (like Googling 'mail corslet') you will find countless references to mail or scale mail corslets (also pressed leather ones). Considering Beowulf was said to have a 'mail corslet', I would think that Tolkien was considering mail rather than plate (Anglo-Saxon point of reference as opposed to Greek, Roman or later medieval plate).

Then why did the song not say mail shirt instead of corslet. You're are making your argument on an assumption not fact. There is no proof that he is refering to mail shirts or plate body. Wouldn't it then be logical that since he didn't refer to either armor specifically that perhaps he was refering to both?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

Then why did the song not say mail shirt instead of corslet. You're are making your argument on an assumption not fact. There is no proof that he is refering to mail shirts or plate body. Wouldn't it then be logical that since he didn't refer to either armor specifically that perhaps he was refering to both?

The line previous to 'corslet' refers to 'metal wrought like fishes' mail', which, not surprisingly is referring to the scale mail evident in corslets worn in Europe during the Dark Ages. This would include the Franks, Danes and the Anglo-Saxons. The corslet reference in no way implies plate.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

"Corslet" appears to refer to the type of clothing piece, its material may then be varied. Tolkien uses the word in "A Journey in the Dark" (FotR):

Bilbo had a corslet of mithril-rings that Thorin gave him.

That is definitely chain mail.

[The Sixth Wizard]

I have never argued the great impact of the archer in the 100 Year's War; however, in each of the England's greatest victories (Crecy, Poitier and Agincourt), it was lack of any coherent French strategy, and the congenitally moronic hubris of their knights (it must have been inherent, as it kept recurring) that caused their destruction. If they had not charged and merely waited on English supplies to run out, then King Phillip would not have run blindly alone through the night, King Jean would not have been captured and sent to London (rather the Black Prince may well have taken his turn in Paris), and Henry V's little army would have been starved into submission.

Well, doesn't that just back up my claim that the Dwarven army was superior, at least man-for-man? For an army composed almost entirely of archers to beat a heavily armed, experienced army of veterans, the circumstances must be just right. The dwarven army was rash, sure, but the Elvish was backed into a corner, indecisive and underarmed. The dwarves had to break through, and that was all.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Hmmm...early 15th century Englishmen with massive shoulders? They'd be lucky to be 5 1/2 feet tall (vitamin deficiencies and poor diet, you know).

Unfortunately, virtually no bowstaves from the medieval period have survived. So how do we know how powerful the bows would have been? Some evidence can be obtained from the arrows, which have survived. Because the 'archer's paradox' demands that a particular bow needs an arrow of suitable spine (stiffness) then by measuring the properties of a medieval arrow we can estimate the strength of the bow for which it was designed. When these calculations were done, the answers were almost unbelievable. They suggested that the force needed to draw a medieval longbow could have been in the range 110 to 180 pounds (500 to 800 Newtons). Although these figures are astonishing, they have been confirmed by calculations based on the bows found in the wreck of Henry VIII's ship Mary Rose, which sank in 1545. It seems likely that in 1415, when archery was at its peak in England as a technique of warfare, bows would have been no less powerful than in 1545, when archery was already beginning to lose ground to firearms.....

Henry had approximately 5,000 archers at Agincourt, and a stock of about 400,000 arrows. Each archer could shoot about ten arrows a minute, so the army only had enough ammunition for about eight minutes of shooting at maximum fire power. However, this fire power would have been devastating. Fifty thousand arrows a minute - over 800 a second - would have hissed down on the French cavalry, killing hundreds of men a minute and wounding many more. The function of a company of medieval archers seems to have been equivalent to that of a machine-gunner, so in modern terms we can imagine Agincourt as a battle between old-fashioned cavalry, supported by a few snipers (crossbow-men) on the French side, against a much smaller army equipped with machine guns. http://www.stortford-archers.org.uk/medieval.htm

William de Braose, an English knight fighting the Welsh in 1188, reported that an arrow had penetrated his chain mail and clothing, passed through his thigh and saddle and finally entered his horse.

It has been claimed that drawing the bowstring back to your cheek bone is equivalent to lifting a 100lb block of concrete with two fingers. To cultivate the special back and shoulder muscles needed it would have been necessary to medieval peasants to have trained from a very young age. This had long-term consequences for the longbowmen. For example, the skeleton of an archer found in the wreck of the Mary Rose showed he had thicker bones in his right arm than his left and a deformed right shoulder from drawing the bow. Other evidence suggests that using such a high-tension weapon often left longbowmen with physical deformities.http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/YALDlongbow.htm

.