Why destroy Laketown's bridge?

[The Sixth Wizard]

I've just found an interesting new line. Bard says, "Cut the bridges!" indicating to me at least that they were in fact dropped, not burnt. My bad...

There's a few problems in your post Alfrin:

I don't think Smaug would want to completely destroy Esgaroth, just do enough damge to put the town in fear of him again. The town would be a useful source of tribute to him if not in gold than in food. A dragon as big as Smaugh would need a lot of food and Esgaroth's livestock (not to mention its citizens) would be like a cornucopia of low effort munchies (swoop down grab something and dinner is served; no hunting required)

As to the question of smaug's landing in Esagroth proper, I think it really depends on exactly what shape you think smaug is. If you think he is a stocky lizard shape then your right he can't if you think he is more sinous and flexible in from then he migh be able to coit around a rooftop. and if you belive (as I do) that flying dragons were closer to wyvrens in shape (i.e. that the wings were attached to the front legs not coming independenly out of the back) than smaug migh have landed in a more bipedal sitting, stance, in which case the space needed would be much less (say the size of the town square)

As to the comments on my earlier post I agree I had frogotten about boats however I'm not sure that there would have been sufficient boatage to get everyone off the island. most of the boats would proably have been small fishing vessels capable of holding five or six people tops. The vast majority would still have been stuck without the bridge. Moreover boats would not be as safe and exit as they sound at first. It takes time to set sails and rowing is slow. The hot air, both from Smaug and the burning city would probably have mucked up the wind assuming there was any that night. All the boat leaving at once would have ment serious problems with wakes bulding on each other into waves. Not to mention that anyone in a boat would be more or less a stiing duck should Smaug decide to fly over and spary them with flame. (or if he was really clever slap the water with his tail and make some serios waves. On that subject I'm not sure where everone is getting the idea that spraying water at Smaug would have been an effective weapon. Dragon fire (unlike say a campfire) is most likey self renew and probably cant be squetched by spraying liquid in the mouth (if it could than a dragons flame would go out every time it ate or drank. Water might have been good for putting out the fires Smaug made but any water sprayed at him while he was breathing flame would have probably just evaporated.

Lets think about it; Smaug was pretty majorly peeved, I can't find a passage but he sure wanted to burn that place down. He didn't spare Dale, which was much closer, for tribute reasons, why would he spare Esgaroth? Dragons such as Smaug tended to sleep all day and were mystical creatures, they may not have needed so much food as they did gold, to sate their hunger.

An overly twisted dragon cannot fly all that well (at least not in take-off). I think Smaug was a mix of the two styles, wyvern and lizard.

Water I believe was used more as a fear element and to douse fires on the houses, not against Smaug. Dragon fire must not have been self-renew, because otherwise Beleriand would still be burning! At least the villagers thought water was a good tool, so it must have helped somewhat.

As for the boats, it is expressly stated that everyone had evacuated via boat, and this is Lake Town we're talking about, boats were how they got around and did business, every family must have had at least one.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by The Sixth Wizard

There's a few problems in your post Alfrin:

An overly twisted dragon cannot fly all that well (at least not in take-off). I think Smaug was a mix of the two styles, wyvern and lizard.

Water I believe was used more as a fear element and to douse fires on the houses, not against Smaug. Dragon fire must not have been self-renew, because otherwise Beleriand would still be burning! At least the villagers thought water was a good tool, so it must have helped somewhat.

As for the boats, it is expressly stated that everyone had evacuated via boat, and this is Lake Town we're talking about, boats were how they got around and did business, every family must have had at least one.

When I said twisted I meant like a snake can coil around on itself in a ring or wrap itslef around a branch; as the body took fligh it would uncoil (much as how a snake when it starts moving uncoils itlsef

By the fire being "self renewing" I meant self renewing inside the (living) dragon. If something was set on fire by a dragon it could of course be put out; all I meant was that I don't think that if you squirt wather down a dragons throat it keeps him from breathing fire (i.e. you can't put out a dragon's pilot light except by killing the dragon or destroying the organ (whatever it is). Given that I'm not sure why Smaug would be afraid of water (or did you mean something by fear element I'm not getting) Falling into the lake, sure, assuming that Smaug can't swim (he was already mortally wounded when he hit the lake so the question of wether he would have had a problme if he had hit it while still heathy is in my opinon still open. Some snakes can swim so maybe snaky dragons can, too) The only reason I can think of that water might worry Smaug would be that if enough water was sprayed on his belly the gunk/slime that holds the jewels in place might dissolve and his whole belly would again be vulnerable. However the men of Laketown would not know this and so could not have prepared water for this. In fact if the last time anyone saw smaugh was when he sacked Dale (before killing off the dwarves) he may not have had the jewel armor yet (no hoard to make it from)

I concede that smaug might not need tribute food and might destroy esgaroth to the ground and take its gold (though if he was smart he would realize that as long as there are still people there more gold will come in. Destroy everthing and you can sack only once, destroy a little and you can sack again and again) but still he may have to much malice in him to think that far ahead. Likewise I was not aware they said that there boats enough for all so I retract that part.

[The Sixth Wizard]

By the fire being "self renewing" I meant self renewing inside the (living) dragon.

Ah my mistake.

Actually I was always at a loss as to how Smaug kept those jewels on him... obviously they are his most prized ones or the most hard, so he wouldn't want them to fall off. I always thought they kind of "stuck on", as though he had lain on them for so long they just stick, like say, when you breathe on a spoon and stick it to your nose..

Dragon anatomy ... now THAT would be a cool topic.

[Rikae]

I think, Alfirin, that you're right in saying that spraying water on Smaug wouldn't put out his fire, but it certainly seems like total immersion in cold water would, at least temporarily, do so.

If he plunged into it, a vapour and a steam would arise enough to cover all the land with a mist for
days; but the lake was mightier than he, it would quench him before he could pass through.

(Assuming "quench him" means it would impair his fire-producing ability.)

[Sauron the White]

Bard saying "cut the bridges" is confusing becuase - according to the drawing of Laketown - I see nothing to cut. This is not some suspension bridge. Perhaps "cut the bridges" was a shorthand way of saying something else.

However, I do think the drawing - done by the same man who wrote the text so he certainly knew what he felt Laketown looked like - gives support to my initial position that Smaug did not need the bridge for any reason. He had plenty of space on the dock s around the buildings and they run the length and width of the town providing ample space to both take off and land. And they do look rather wide.

If anyone is going to postulate that they will not support Smaugs weight, that would then apply also to the entire town since its all on the same foundation. Those support pillars go right up to the edge of the docks.

But it is my contention that Smaug - being a creature who is much faster in the air - would stick to a fast and quick aerial attack because that is where his advantage lied. You can speculate about food and additional treasure all you want, but the idea of a massive dragon walking foot by foot through this rather crowded looking town while many armed people attacked him at close range, defies logic for him to take that approach. There is simply no advantage to him doing that as opposed to his great advantage in the air.

There is no reason to destroy that bridge against a creature who is attacking you from the air. When the Germans did their lengthy bombing of England in WWII, was anyone heard to say "quick, the Lutwaffe is coming, destroy London Bridge". Seems rather silly does it not.

[alatar]

Not sure of the exact mechanism, but under extreme magnification I noted that the bridge was designed to repel Smaug.

[Sauron the White]

That was rather funny. Very clever Alatar.

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

Bard saying "cut the bridges" is confusing becuase - according to the drawing of Laketown - I see nothing to cut. This is not some suspension bridge. Perhaps "cut the bridges" was a shorthand way of saying something else.

However, I do think the drawing - done by the same man who wrote the text so he certainly knew what he felt Laketown looked like - gives support to my initial position that Smaug did not need the bridge for any reason. He had plenty of space on the dock s around the buildings and they run the length and width of the town providing ample space to both take off and land. And they do look rather wide.

Text and picture obviously do not match (just take the number of bridges). Therefore, one must be faulty. Since I think Tolkien was much more careful about what he wrote than he was about what he drew, in the case of contradiction I would take the description and discard the depiction.

And even if we take the picture, landing on those docks looks dangerous, considering Smaug's speed and the fact that one misstep would make him end up in the lake.

Originally Posted by Sauron

If anyone is going to postulate that they will not support Smaugs weight, that would then apply also to the entire town since its all on the same foundation. Those support pillars go right up to the edge of the docks.

It would support the weight, but perhaps not the impact. He did crash through it when he died, and do we know whether he was able to sufficiently slow down before landing? I still think it is believable that Smaug was not able to land inside the town, but apart from the fact that it is said that he was unable to, there appears to be no evidence to either side.

Originally Posted by Sauron

But it is my contention that Smaug - being a creature who is much faster in the air - would stick to a fast and quick aerial attack because that is where his advantage lied. You can speculate about food and additional treasure all you want, but the idea of a massive dragon walking foot by foot through this rather crowded looking town while many armed people attacked him at close range, defies logic for him to take that approach. There is simply no advantage to him doing that as opposed to his great advantage in the air.

My armour is like tenfold shields, my teeth are swords, my claws spears, the shock of my tail a thunderbolt, my wings a hurricane, and my breath death!

Consider this and tell me why Smaug should be afraid of many armed people attacking him at close range? Smaug's only advantage in the air is speed and mobility. If you consider yourself invincible, this is only little advantage. To the contrary, he is much more deadly when he can engage in closer "combat", which he is unable to do while flying.

Originally Posted by Sauron

There is no reason to destroy that bridge against a creature who is attacking you from the air. When the Germans did their lengthy bombing of England in WWII, was anyone heard to say "quick, the Lutwaffe is coming, destroy London Bridge". Seems rather silly does it not.

Seems a silly analogy indeed. It would be analogous if there had been a bridge over the channel, and if there had been one, you can bet it would have been torn down in a minute.

[Sauron the White]

My armour is like tenfold shields, my teeth are swords, my claws spears, the shock of my tail a thunderbolt, my wings a hurricane, and my breath death!

Consider this and tell me why Smaug should be afraid of many armed people attacking him at close range? Smaug's only advantage in the air is speed and mobility. If you consider yourself invincible, this is only little advantage. To the contrary, he is much more deadly when he can engage in closer "combat", which he is unable to do while flying.

Based on that drawing, it looks like Laketown is a crowded place without much room for a large beast like Smaug to maneuver around, let alone quickly. I would think that to box him into a small area where several buildings converge would give attackers on the ground their best chance at him. His speed and agility and overhead advantage is removed and negated. Its like getting a fast moving boxer cornered in a smaller ring where he cannot move around and use his advantages.

Closer combat means his eyes are closer to attackers and how does he protect those? It also lessens the distance between the fired arrows and means they have more force when they hit since they are not going so far out and upwards. I would think the physics of war would be more on the sides of the townies when they can shoot at closer range and perhaps use buildings as shields and protection. But thats just speculation.

I would equate Smaugs boasting to modern day pro wreslters who thump their chests and boast how they will rip out the organs of their opponent while reading from a prepared script. Its part of the show and is all hype and bluster. I think Smaug was not above that sort of thing.

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

His speed and agility and overhead advantage is removed and negated. Its like getting a fast moving boxer cornered in a smaller ring where he cannot move around and use his advantages.

I don't know where you get the idea that Smaug's advantages (or even his greatest advantages) are speed and agility. What about his size and strength (knocking down roofs with his tail, crashing through the city), his fiery breath and his armour? If you want to fight him at close range, be my guest - I'd prefer to keep my distance.

It also lessens the distance between the fired arrows and means they have more force when they hit since they are not going so far out and upwards.

Indeed, they are not going upwards, and therefore are aimed at the toughest part of the dragon.

I would think the physics of war would be more on the sides of the townies when they can shoot at closer range and perhaps use buildings as shields and protection. But thats just speculation.

They can use buildings more effectively for this purpose when Smaug isn't close enough to smash or incinerate said buildings.

[Sauron the White]

It is wonderful that the human condition permits us to take the same set of facts and come to the very opposite conclusions.

[Bêthberry]

As to the question of bridge versus bridges, it is quite possible that Laketown had internal bridges and not only the one bridge leading from shore to "pontoon" town, as it were. (Yes, I know the town was not technically a floating town.) Tolkien's drawing uses the perspective of the shoreline and so would not necessarily show the inner bridge work, although it does show possible side "canals" into the town. It does not in fact show the sheltering rock which his text mentions either--again, simply the fact that one drawing cannot reproduce all the aspects of perspective available to a written text. In this case, the thousand words actually are more informative.

Originally Posted by TH, "A Warm Welcome"

Not far from the mouth of the Forest River was the strange town he heard the elves speak of in the king's cellars. It was not built on the shore, though there were a few huts and buildings there, but right out on the surface of the lake, protected from the swirl of the entering river by a promontory of rock which formed a calm bay. A great bridge made of wood ran out to where on huge piles made of forest trees was built a busy wooden town, not a town of elves but of Men, who still dared to dwell here under the shadow of the distant dragon-mountain.

Interestingly, Alan Lee's drawing of Laketown picks up on this possiblity of canals:



As for whether a fire breathing dragon could be squelched by spirts of SuperSoakers, well, that depends upon the anatomy of said dragon and the method of producing the fire. Certainly it is unlikely that any internal forge is at work, as we would have to question how the dragon's interal organs would withstand the fire. Here's a most interesting analysis of how intelligently to design a fire breathing dragon:

The Scientifc Feasibility of Fire Breathing Dragons

If this design of a methane-holding bladder in the head is feasible, it would possibly provide two uses: not simply to produce fire, but also to act as ballast, allowing the dragon to fly by his own internal 'hot air balloon'. So the dragon would be forced to employ a balancing act as it were: too much fire production would hinder his flight capabilities, thus necessitating some sort of ground assault.

As for the generation of fire, the spark necessary to ignite the gas from this bladder could easily be what the SuperSoakers would aim for. So they would not necessarily be putting out the flames so much as inhibiting the production of the flames.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

while the city was crowded and cramped not allowing him to land, it was big enough for him to manuever around - or perhaps small enough enabling him to walk over the structures

Do you know how strong Smaug is?

My armour is like tenfold shields, my teeth are swords, my claws spears, the shock of my tail a thunderbolt, my wings a hurricane, and my breath death!

Even if this is an exaggeration, he could easily take down buildings with his arms and tail. This would be easy for him. He just walks around, smashing down buildings and killing all people in his way.

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

Closer combat means his eyes are closer to attackers and how does he protect those?

He had eye-caps like snakes. If Melkor designed a killing machine based on a reptile, wouldn't he have given it the best weapons protection reptiles had to offer? In fact, wouldn't he have give it the best weapons and protection any animal has to offer (And beyond)?

And as for your question of how they broke down the bridges?

What about Motte and bailey castles ages ago (around 1066+). They could get rid of that bridge immediately. (examples here, here, here, here and here
Or they could end it with a drawbridge, like here and here

[The Sixth Wizard]

If this design of a methane-holding bladder in the head is feasible, it would possibly provide two uses: not simply to produce fire, but also to act as ballast, allowing the dragon to fly by his own internal 'hot air balloon'. So the dragon would be forced to employ a balancing act as it were: too much fire production would hinder his flight capabilities, thus necessitating some sort of ground assault.

Let's forget about this methane-bladder theory, please. Dragon's fire, at least in Tolkien, is created through the physical form of the dragon's inner fea, the fire spirit that has been corrupted by Morgoth. Adding in actual bodily elements, while quite interesting, is much too complicated for this thread methinks. I think we should keep it simple for now.

Sorry to completely snub you Bêth...