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Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page |
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#1 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 903
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from the Sixth Wizard
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I find it interesting that so many want to ignore or simply pretend that illustration did not exist. It reminds me of songwriter Paul Simons observation: Simon & Garfunkel "The Boxer" A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest. And I love how some here can act as if they are handing down the Truth from the Mountaintop on the anatomy and physics of mythical creatures. Amazing powers indeed. |
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#2 |
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 6,003
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Where was this done, please? Who stated we wanted to ignore the illustration? Who said we should pretend it does not exist?
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
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#3 | |||||
Fading Fëanorion
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: into the flood again
Posts: 2,911
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-The Dwarves, who have more of a resistance to fire (due to armour and nature) than Men, managed to injure Glaurung - under heavy losses. -An army of walking dragons destroyed Gondolin. All this they did with unprotected bellies, which makes them less effective ground attackers than Smaug. Glaurung was killed by one of the greatest men in ME-history - who had to hide and surprise-attack him. We are not told that any other dragon has ever lost his life (prior to the War of Wrath, that is). Again, I did not claim wings are useless to dragons. They add a deadly alternative attack to them, plus the many other benefits like speedy transportation and elevated perspective. Flying makes a dragon more powerful, but it is stated nowhere, I think, that it becomes their chief kind of attack. Quote:
You say it isn't so. If you do not accept it, then what other conclusion do you draw? |
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#4 | ||||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 903
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from Rikae
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from Bethberry Quote:
from davem today at 2:12 on this very page Quote:
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#5 | ||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 903
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from Macalaure
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Although we are told that he greatly enjoyed the game of killing and hunting the people and intended to do that to those who escaped. Perhaps killing those trying to also escape by bridge was just the first round in his cat and mouse game? I really do not know for a fact and neither does anyone else. |
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#6 | |
Mellifluous Maia
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: A glade open to the stars, deep in Nan Elmoth
Posts: 3,489
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Quote:
Furthermore, why add "if he plunged into it, a vapour and a steam would arise enough to cover all the land with a mist for days; but the lake was mightier than he, it would quench him before he could pass through" if all he had in mind was a cat-and-mouse game involving the bridge (why would there be any question of him "plunging into" or "passing through" the water at all in that case?) Why explain, that is, why he can't risk falling into the water or pass through it, if that were never an issue anyway? |
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#7 |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In a flower
Posts: 97
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Why would Smaug need to land at all? I have never understood why he would need to land at all. Of course I am thinking that stealth bombers actually do better in the air than on land. I don't know if that is a fair comparison, but if I could breath fire, destroy towns and fly, I wouldn't be caught walking across a bridge.
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Lurking behind Uncle Fester |
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#8 | |||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 903
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here is the description by JRRT in the text
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from Rikae Quote:
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#9 | |||
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
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Going back to the first mention of Smaug's attack on the Lonely Mountain we find: Quote:
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#10 | |
Fading Fëanorion
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: into the flood again
Posts: 2,911
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Quote:
The view I (and almost all others) presented is the only plausible one, despite all you said. If your only point is that no statement can be made, and that Tolkien isn't beyond all contrivable doubt clear in what he says, then have it. |
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#11 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 903
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davem & others
the faults on one picture do not apply to the picture of a different subject. The behavior of Smaug - and some of that behavior is inferred by you - does not mean he behaved like that in each and every case. One does not prove or disprove the other. You push on my meaning of this ... okay .... your wish is my command what does this mean Quote:
Happy now? |
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#12 | ||
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
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#13 | ||
Fading Fëanorion
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: into the flood again
Posts: 2,911
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#14 |
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 6,003
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a violin, E flat, 10 seconds
After all this downing of the Bridge, I hope you won't be drowning in the Browning paper, Rikae.
yes indeed; it's not The Boxer; it is The Dangling Conversation. But I did appreciate the small refrain of Bridge Over Troubled Waters which two of our members played. And I want everyone to know that I could not find one pair of Lord of The Rings boxers. I found Star wars ones, and Harry Potter ones, and Shrek ones, but not one having anything to do with Tolkien. The Welsh dragon was the closest.
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
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#15 | |
Fading Fëanorion
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: into the flood again
Posts: 2,911
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Quote:
About the picture: If it wouldn't show something which is contradicting to the book, nobody would be willing to discard it. You seem to try to use the picture in order to disprove the book, which is - I'm sorry - ridiculous. |
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#16 | |||||
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 6,003
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Quote:
davem points out that perspective is wrong in one illustration. Tiny Bilbo Perhaps the next step is to examine and cross examine all of Tolkien's illustrations to see if this characteristic is present in the entire spectrum of Tolkien's illustrations. And then we could discuss the merits of perspective per se. But davem's call was based on some evidence. Ibrin provides a quotation from Tolkien himself, from the Letters: My own pictures are an unsafe guide. That tag for the link is a quotation from Tolkien; Ibrin says it is in Letter #27. Perhaps someone could check to verify if she has quoted it correctly and fairly and within context? I'll reiterate the full quotation from Tolkien just so we can see what reason she offerred for suggesting that the illustrations do not have authorial authority: Quote:
So therefore, based on the examples of these two posters, davem and Ibrin (the latter of whom StW completely ignored) would appear that the arguments of only one person at least fall into this category: Quote:
And as for Boxers and Dragons, well, let us enjoy ourselves with contemplating these possibilities: ![]() ![]() ![]()
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
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