Or no Hobbits at all...

[William Cloud Hicklin]

22. Under the 1969 agreements, United Artists obtained the right, among other things, to make films based on the Literary Works and agreed, among other things, to pay [Tolkien and his publishers] a total of 7.5% of the "Gross Receipts" from any films based upon the Literary Works after a contractually-defined "Artificial Payment Level" is reached (hereinafter referred to as the "Gross Receipts Participation" or "Participation"). The 1969 Agreements expressly define "Gross Receipts" to include "all moneys derived by the distributor of the photoplay" less certain defined "off-the-top" expenses. The 1969 Agreements define the "Artificial Payment Level" as that point at which the "Gross Receipts" exceed 2.6 times the defined "final cost of production of the photoplay," plus certain other defined costs.

The repeated use of defined implies that each of these terms is defined within the four corners of the contract.

Allegations of New Line financial shenanigans tomorrow.

[Sauron the White]

Well it looks like we are closer to having more information.

The 1969 Agreements expressly define "Gross Receipts" to include "all moneys derived by the distributor of the photoplay" less certain defined "off-the-top" expenses.

So based on this clause, is money taken in by a theater showing LOTR but not sent to NL part of the gross receipts?

And hopefully we will see those definitions of expenses.

Sadly - or happily, I will be gone from the electronic world for one week so will catch up on my return.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

So based on this clause, is money taken in by a theater showing LOTR but not sent to NL part of the gross receipts?

No.


Unfortunately the original contracts were not appended to the Complaint (grr- here they'd have to be); so unless and until they're filed with the Court we're still in the dark as to the actual contract language.

[zxcvbn]

Earlier, someone posted something about the Tolkien Estate's 'official position' issued by Christopher through lawyers in 2001 or so('...thinking evil of those involved are wholly without foundation.'). I'd like to point out that when you're the head of a private company or foundation, you have to maintain a neutral, non-inflammatory 'official position' towards the public that may or may not be your actual opinion.

This is mostly guesswork on my part(basing it mostly on a few things like the 'source close to Tolkien family' revealing that he is 'catatonic' over the films success and thinks that all popular entertainment is unutterably low') but I feel that the older members of the Tolkien Estate(who are the ones participating in the lawsuit) harbour a feeling of resentment and anger towards the movies and would rather not have any more made(hence the audacious 'seeking a court order banning the Hobbit'). I feel relatively sure that if they win the case with New Line they'll turn their attention to Saul Zaentz and try to regain the rights from him.

[Boromir88]

but I feel that the older members of the Tolkien Estate(who are the ones participating in the lawsuit) harbour a feeling of resentment and anger towards the movies and would rather not have any more made(hence the audacious 'seeking a court order banning the Hobbit'.)~zxcvbn

Hearing from some friends, the Tolkien Estate has always been pleasant and helpful but the same can't be said for New Line. This is coming from an administrator of a forum who had to deal with both the Estate and New Line to avoid any sort of legal issues). Also, as I believe davem mentions the Tolkien Estate has given millions of dollars to several charities, whilst New Line has had a tendency to cheat people out of their due money.

Think of it this way...it's going to be a slightly different scenario, but it's virtually what the argument is here.

If a company wants to put your face on their merchandise and they say you will get 5% of the revenue they make from merchandise, but you don't see a penny of that money (or you don't get what they promised you) if they come to you again asking "hey can we put your face on our merchandise, you'll get 5%...etc) are you going to say yes a second time, knowing they cheated you before? Then why would the Estate let New Line continue to make these movies if New Line had not honoured their contract?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

source close to Tolkien family' revealing that he is 'catatonic' over the films success and thinks that all popular entertainment is unutterably low

That press report was a fabrication. Untrue. Either the 'pal' in question was lying through his teeth and doesn't actually know CRT, or the reporter simply made him up (as the British press have invented so many other 'facts' about CRT).

Consider: on a parallel thread we've been discussing the extent to which CT helped out with the BBC radio production, even recording a tape of Elvish pronunciation.

In point of fact CRT likes movies. Just not these particular movies.

[davem]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Consider: on a parallel thread we've been discussing the extent to which CT helped out with the BBC radio production, even recording a tape of Elvish pronunciation.

CT's participation in the radio production has to be kept in mind here - that adaptation was not a straight 'lift' from the books - new scenes were specially written (one in episode 1, where Sam brings post to Bilbo & Frodo in Bag End, another in episode 2 where Gandalf visits Edoras & asks for help after escaping from Orthanc). Other episodes & characters were omitted (Bombadil/Barrow Downs, Gildor, Imrahil, Elladan & Ellrohir). But the point is that before the production began the scripts were sent to Christopher for approval - which he gave. Sibley stated that Christopher was very sympathetic to the difficulties they faced in adapting the story into another medium.

In fact, a few years later one of the adaptors of the series, Brian Sibley, dramatised some of Tolkien's short stories (Niggle, Smith, Giles, &, interestingly, the Old Forest/Bombadil/Barrow Downs episode missed out of the series). Point being, Christopher is not stupid, realises that there is a difference between books & dramatisations - whether that's to radio or film - & appreciates that some changes are necessary. But not every change is necessary.

Of course, as far as I know, the movie makers didn't even bother to consult Christopher - which is hardly a sign of respect. And something else to bear in mind here is that the producers of the stage show requested, & received, access to all Tolkien's linguistic writings.

I can't help feeling that if the movie makers had consulted Christopher he would have been prepared to help out, & that the movies would have been all the better for it - and anyone who thinks that he would simply have demanded every single thing from the book should be included, & would have vetoed every change simply misunderstands him.