Or no Hobbits at all...

[William Cloud Hicklin]

It's not unlike Gen. Omar Bradley's status as "advisor" on the biopic Patton. Coppola got a very big-name endorsement; Bradley got a pot o' cash and a glowing, almost saintly portrayal onscreen.

What was never in play was anything resembling historical accuracy.

[Sauron the White]

Well, having just returned from a week of fun in the sunny climes of the Florida Keys, I must say that not one thing has been cleared up in my absence. I do find it interesting that the complaint filed is now available online and has been extensively quoted here and elsewhere, but the key elements have not been disclosed. And what are those?

The most important things as I see them is the definition of income, expenses and what is allowable and what is not. If NL is going to claim that their expenses times the 2.6 multiplier factor yield a number that denies the Estate any revenues at this time, then the important thing is to determine how that series of numbers is put together.

A week ago I wrote that we need to know how the contract defines the permissable expenses that the filmmaker is allowed to use before determining if the 2.6 multiplier goes into effect. AS OF TODAY, WE DO NOT KNOW THAT.

A week ago I wrote that we need to know how the contract defines the monies that amount to gross receipts or income. AS OF TODAY, WE DO NOT KNOW THAT.

Until we know those things, we are just running all our collective mouths as we attempt to discuss this suit without proper evidence. Of course, that has never stopped anyone here before.

I hesitate to get into a discussion about the motives of the filmmakers and if they should have, or if they did, consult Christopher Tolkien. Some here have floated the idea that if they - Jackson and company- would have given CT a veto over the scripts they maybe he would have helped. That is simply something that no filmmaker would want to do unless they had absolutely no other way of obtaining the rights. You are giving a veto to somebody who may not know beans about the filmmaking process, script writing, directing or anything else asociated with films.

Ernest Hemmingway said the best thing a author and producer could do was to meet on a deserted beach at midnight and toss the book and a briefcase filled with money to each other and never see or talk to each other again. Hemingway knew what he was talking about. And it looks like JRR Tolkien took Hemingways advice because his agreement with UA gave him not even the merest suggestion of a whisper of influence. And he was happy with enough with that to sign the contract.

If the Estate wants fans to be informed about this lawsuit and wants fan support for their position, they would do well to release the important language defining the items I have mentioned here. Without that, we are only getting very spotty information which in the end is like trying to read so many tea leaves.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

As I see it, our purpose in discussions here at the Downs is to talk about content, not about finances. So unless there is something really important that needs to be said about this issue, let's chill it. There's no sense in getting hot and bothered over an issue that concerns none of us directly and that cannot be influenced by any of us.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

If the Estate wants fans to be informed about this lawsuit and wants fan support for their position, they would do well to release the important language defining the items I have mentioned here.

As if the Estate cared about either, or 'fan support' mattered a hill of beans in court.

The Estate's *lawyers* have not yet filed the original contracts. Eventually they will. That's the way litigation works.

[Sauron the White]

from Estelyn

There's no sense in getting hot and bothered over an issue that concerns none of us directly and that cannot be influenced by any of us.

I agree with that statement that nobody should get hot and bothered about this because none of us have a dime to make either way. That is true. And you certainly have taught me that no discussion should be heated. Nice and proper with all courtesy and respect extended to all.

However, I do think that this entire situation could have impact upon all of us who have an interest in future films about Middle-earth particularly the announced HOBBIT film and a bridge film. Since the Estate has announced that part of their suit is to explore the idea that NL can be stripped of rights to make these films, and many of us want these films, there is a very direct effect upon us. That is what makes this an interesting topic for discussion here and a very much on topic subject for discussion.

from WCH

As if the Estate cared about either, or 'fan support' mattered a hill of beans in court.

There are several kinds of courts. There are courts of law and there is the court of public opinion.

The Estate's *lawyers* have not yet filed the original contracts. Eventually they will. That's the way litigation works.

If and when that happens, I would be greatly interested in seeing the actual language to see if it is indeed specific in offereing crystal clear definitions of the various terms in the contract identifying what these acceptable expenses are and how they are calcualted and what constitutes income and how that is calculated. Until we have that nobody here can make any judgment as to if or how much the Estate has been cheated by NL or how much money is due to them.

I totally agree that the Estate should get every dollar owed to them under the contract. NL has a terrible record of paying off profit sharing partners so it would not surprise me at all if the Estate is just the latest in that line. However, the deal the Estate has if far different than simple profit sharing becauses of this expenses times 2.6 multiplier. That makes their profit sharing far different than Saul Zaentz, Peter Jackson or anyone else.

JRR Tolkien may have made the best deal in the history of selling film rights. Or he may have made a terrible deal. We will not know that until these facts come out.

I suspect that even when they do, they will be less than crystal clear and offer much wiggle room for accountants and attorneys to earn their princely salaries in court for the next couple of years.

[davem]

Re 'Fan support": Ace Books anyone?

[Boromir88]

There's no sense in getting hot and bothered over an issue that concerns none of us directly and that cannot be influenced by any of us.~Estelyn

I agree with that statement that nobody should get hot and bothered about this because none of us have a dime to make either way.~Sauron the White

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with both of you on this. This suit does effect us. Maybe we don't have money to gain, and we may not be as personally effected by it as the Tolkien Estate, but when did the idea of as "common people" (or "fans") we have no choice but to sit idle and observe at a distance?

If New Line did cheat the Estate out of the money owed to them (which seeing the complaint by the Estate it sounds identical to what NL has done to the actors, Peter Jackson, and Saul Zaentz - this "creative hollywood accounting" crap). What New Line has attempted to do is cheat, and profit, off an author's hard earned work, that he spent years to write for our enjoyment:

Of course the L.R. does not belong to me. It has been brought forth and must now go its appointed way in the world, though naturally I take a deep interest in its fortunes , as a person would of a child.~Letter # 328

'I hope that you have enjoyed The Lord of the Rings? Enjoyed is the key-word. For it was written to amuse (in the highest sense): to be readable.'~Letter 181

An author who had to work late hours as a professor to scrape in more money, an author who's books I have enjoyed reading several times for many many years.

New Line is facing a public relations disaster, and I may not get a dime out of it, but I can try to make sure New Line doesn't make another dime off someone else's years of work and get away without paying for it.

This doesn't effect the fans? It certainly does. As fans we must sit and merely watch like little children as the "adults" duke it out, powerless to effect anything? No. I can make sure New Line doesn't get another cent from me, and I can try to persuade other effected fans to do the same; hoping New Line pays so dearly for a problem they brought upon themselves that they are never able to recover. Now, that is power.