Gothmog as Pat

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Expandable messenger? Oh my, you are underrating him. No, he wasn't a warrior from what we know, but we are talking about rank, and that was high. A Prime Minister does not normally go into war personally, but his rank is high nonetheless.

And I think you are overrating him. Sure he cut an impressive figure on his monstrous horse at the parley - but was he really THAT great? He was high in Sauron's favor - yes, he showed cunning, cruelty and servility. His job was to relate the Dark Lord's orders to underlings, and to supervise the other servants in the Barad-Dur fortress. Likely he lent his hand in torturing the prisoners - more like a hobby. But it doesn't make him anything like a Prime minister of Mordor. Had he any authority outside Barad Dur? - We are not told that. Was he entitled to give advice to Sauron? I doubt it. He was a sorcerer, as much as a mortal can learn, yes, but, for instance, when the Fell Beast project was being developed, MOS was not in it - only Sauron and the WK (RC).

Also, Sauron didn't hesitate to send MOS to the parley, protected only by ambassador's diplomatic immunity. Could Sauron be 100 % sure that the Lords of Gondor wouldn't chop off MOS's head, like Aragorn did in the infamous PJ's scene? Sauron was treacherous and judged others by his standards - MOS himself was much afraid. That's why I call him expendable.

And let us consider his dream - to become the new Lord of Isengard. Was this position better than Sauron's right-hand man, his Prime Minister? Hardly, but then again MOS never was Sauron's right-hand man.

And a one of the Ministers in a state ruled by Sauron could be named Gothmog, why not?

Gothmog was clearly a military commander, not a minister.

Do you really believe MoS cleared latrines in Barad-Dur?!!

Nay, but he made sure that everything ran smoothly, was in order, including the latrines. If there were a problem of this genre, do you think the orcs would report to Sauron? Nay, they had MOS for it at the top of a long chain of command.

And yes, I believe there was such a person - the Lieutenant of Minas Morgul. And who was that? Gothmog, of course. No problem with this one.

I am sure that Gothmog was the Lieutenant of Morgul (Lord)=the WK - not Minas Morgul fortress. And "Lieutenant" here is not a definite army rank (like nowadays) but has the same meaning as second-in-command.

I never spoke about Nazgul. I spoke about the armies. I always believed the Nazgul to be flying around on Sauron's direct orders, ordered to scare people and oversee the battle and eventually report on what's happening. I never counted the Nazgul above Pelennor to be under command of the general, and if they were, then the WK and later they'd leave (among other things to inform Sauron that the First Nazgul is dead, as we read in RotK. Also, WK couldn't have commanded them anyway for example when he was at the Gate).

I believe the nazgul were under the WK's direct orders, not Sauron's. Every army needs a clear chain of command from top to bottom - it is never good when someone other interferes (even Sauron). Even when the WK was on the ground he could have communicated with the others - by cries:

(The Nazgûl found one another easily, since they were quickly aware of a companion presence, and could hear the cries over great distances. They could see one another also from far away, even by day when to them a Nazgûl was the one clearly visible thing in a mist.)Marquette MSS 4/2/36 RC p. 164

Also at the Ford the WK managed to give Frodo an order (to stop) using Osanwe, so I have no doubt that he could do the same with his own fellows.

If Gothmog was the next-in-rank after the WK among the present nazgul, then the rest would obey him. Of course, all of them would be much demoralized by the WK's fall anyway - after all, he was their captain for 4500+ years...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Gordis

And I think you are overrating him. Sure he cut an impressive figure on his monstrous horse at the parley - but was he really THAT great?

I'm sure he was (see below).

Was he entitled to give advice to Sauron? I doubt it.

Not sure, but at least:

Originally Posted by The Black Gate Opens

and knew much of the mind of Sauron

Which implies something like that. Not that Sauron is one who takes advice from anyone, but this one had probably the closest to it.

Let me catch you on your own words:

And "Lieutenant" here is not a definite army rank (like nowadays) but has the same meaning as second-in-command.

Second in command, indeed! Now see this (about Mouth of Sauron):

Originally Posted by The Black Gate Opens

The Lieutenant of the Tower of Barad-dûr he was

Read what's written there about MoS - there was even debate here back then whether he couldn't have been of higher rank than WK himself (nonsense in my opinion, however not that overstretched).

Also, Sauron didn't hesitate to send MOS to the parley, protected only by ambassador's diplomatic immunity. Could Sauron be 100 % sure that the Lords of Gondor wouldn't chop off MOS's head, like Aragorn did in the infamous PJ's scene? Sauron was treacherous and judged others by his standards - MOS himself was much afraid. That's why I call him expendable.

There's ambiguity in this. For Sauron, everyone was expandable, for ultimately, he did not care for anyone but himself. However, as long as he had some servants who were good for him, he cared about them more than about the others - and MoS clearly belongs in this cathegory. And the scene with diplomatic immunity (MoS's words that he can't be attacked) shows quite the opposite than you suggest to me: he counted upon the diplomatic immunity, do not say "only by", because the codex of honour and all these things were valued in Middle-Earth (cf. Gandalf's response). It was not a sort of custom that can be broken wilfully, no, indeed, only the "low master of treachery" would do that.

And let us consider his dream - to become the new Lord of Isengard. Was this position better than Sauron's right-hand man, his Prime Minister?

Not sure. But he would be like the lord of his own realm, indeed, all the West would be his, and far from Sauron himself, he will be almost free to do whatever he wants (or at least, he naively thought so). Prefect of a large but distant province.

Nay, but he made sure that everything ran smoothly, was in order, including the latrines. If there were a problem of this genre, do you think the orcs would report to Sauron? Nay, they had MOS for it at the top of a long chain of command.

No, they told that to the fifth deputy to the eighth advisor to Mouth of Sauron. That's why the chain of command is there.

I am sure that Gothmog was the Lieutenant of Morgul (Lord)=the WK - not Minas Morgul fortress.

That's more or less the same, in my opinion.

I believe the nazgul were under the WK's direct orders, not Sauron's. Every army needs a clear chain of command from top to bottom - it is never good when someone other interferes (even Sauron).

Yes, but the root of my idea is that the Nazgul were not there as part of the army. They had nothing to do with the attack on Minas Tirith. They were there as "outside force", to mess around and eventually carry messages and scare Faramirs.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

"He knew much of the mind of Sauron"
Not that Sauron is one who takes advice from anyone, but this one had probably the closest to it.

He spoke for the Lord - therefore, not to err in rendering Sauron's words, he had to understand his intentions - get some additional explanations. But a spokeseman for Sauron is not the same as his Prime Minister, and far less than his second-in-command.
and see here :

if there was any in the world in whom [Sauron] trusted it was the Lord of Angmar - RC p.262

.

"The Lieutenant of the Tower of Barad-dûr he was"
Indeed, but not the "Lieutenant of Sauron", not his Second in command. The Morgul lord was Sauron's second in command, his most trusted servant, not MOS.

there was even debate here back then whether he couldn't have been of higher rank than WK himself (nonsense in my opinion, however not that overstretched).

Nonsence, indeed, AND quite overstretched IMO.

As I said, the leutenant was not a clear-cut rank. The lieutenant of Minas Morgul Tower is not the same as the Lieutenant of the Morgul Lord - who happens also be the overall head of the army of Mordor and allied forces.

In Minas Morgul, there could have been a man -XXX - the lieutenant of the Tower of Morgul - similar to MOS with similar functions, also, likely, not a warrior but an administrator. But his functions wouldn't entail replacing the Commander of Mordor army when he was slain, anymore than MOS would replace Sauron in case something happened to him. The WK would.

Sauron put the Morgul Lord in command of the Army. Would XXX, his lieutenant of the Minas Morgul tower automatically become second in command of the army? - no way. The Second in command would be appointed separately - and he would be a warrior of high rank, almost certainly another nazgul. Not Khamul, as this one was most probably in the North, but Gothmog.

It was not a sort of custom that can be broken wilfully, no, indeed, only the "low master of treachery" would do that.

And Sauron was one himself and judged the others by his own standards - for instance, he couldn't understand how the other side would reject the Power of the Ring. That's why he lost, ultimately.

Yes, but the root of my idea is that the Nazgul were not there as part of the army. They had nothing to do with the attack on Minas Tirith. They were there as "outside force", to mess around and eventually carry messages and scare Faramirs.

I wouldn't say they had nothing to do with the attack on MT. They were shrieking overhead for several days, but given their mobility, it wouldn't prevent them from being in command of parts of the army. Some were, I think, while the others carried orders and circled over the city. Maybe they took turns to let the Beasts rest. The WK was alone at the Gate and when he came for Theoden, but most likely it was because the others were quite busy elsewhere or maybe the WK sent them away to get all the glory.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Gordis

"The Lieutenant of the Tower of Barad-dûr he was"
Indeed, but not the "Lieutenant of Sauron", not his Second in command. The Morgul lord was Sauron's second in command, his most trusted servant, not MOS.

Yes, but the main point is that he was there, surely Sauron did not trust MoS (though with no doubt he trusted him more than most of the other servants), he did not trust anyone entirely, indeed, as you quoted, if anyone, then WK who was totally subdued by the Ring (so if you can call it "trust"). But anyway, you cannot deny now that MoS was somewhere around the highest ranks, if not second, then third in command. We are talking different levels of command here (and here I think you misunderstood me in the first place) - MoS was not a general, not a soldier, his rank was not military, but "civil", a "politician", indeed, a minister - while WK was a general.

And Sauron was one himself and judged the others by his own standards - for instance, he couldn't understand how the other side would reject the Power of the Ring.

Yes, but he was not entirely stupid and he knew about the laws and customs in M-E. He did not hold them himself, but knew his enemies hold them. Of course there was this possibility that some of the Lords of the West go amok and decapitate MoS, but I doubt Sauron would even have thought of that. And if it even happened, well, collateral damage - but that's not lowering the value of MoS in his eyes; Sauron would probably go mad, in his wrath order to kill all the Westerners, and later, yes, he would appoint a new Lieutenant of Barad-Dur (who will be only happy to achieve higher rank). For illustration, have you ever seen Star Wars? I imagine it like Darth Vader and all these lieutenants of him - or even more, like Darth Sidious losing his apprentices, but with no problems replacing them with new ones when the old one dies. Yet don't tell me they were not important and valued to him when he still had them.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

But anyway, you cannot deny now that MoS was somewhere around the highest ranks, if not second, then third in command. We are talking different levels of command here (and here I think you misunderstood me in the first place) - MoS was not a general, not a soldier, his rank was not military, but "civil", a "politician", indeed, a minister - while WK was a general.

I don't deny that MOS had a high rank - probably he was the highest ranking MORTAL man in Mordor. I still think he had to bow even to the least of the Nine, though. The immortal Nazgul were entirely on another level, and while any mortal was replaceable, the nazgul were not.
I agree that MOS was no soldier, and that was why I brought him into this discussion about Gothmog in the first place.

Look at the parallels:
Sauron, lord of Barad Dur and Mordor, has MOS, the Lieutenant of Barad Dur Tower - a mortal Man, civilian administrator.
Sauron's Lieutenant = Second in command, who would replace him (if he accidentally falls and breaks his neck) is the Witch-King.

The Morgul Lord, lord of Minas Morgul, probably has XXX, the Lieutenant of Minas Morgul Tower - a mortal Man, civilian administrator.
The Witch-King's Lieutenant (The Lieutenant of Morgul) who would replace him (if he accidentally falls to a woman and a halfling with a Barrow-blade)) is Gothmog.

So, you see, Gothmog, Lieutenant of Morgul (Lord), is analogous to the Witch-King, Lieutenant of Sauron, not MOS, the Lieutenant of BD Tower.

Who would replace the WK when he is killed? - another nazgul, of course.

Also look at it this way: in every allied army, composed of troops of several countries and of different races, there is always a question of leadership. For instance, who would command a reserve composed of the Haradrim, the Variags of Khand, and Orcs of Gorgoroth? The King of Harad? Or the General of Khand? Or an orc? Difficult to choose, especially if Variags and Haradrim and orcs hated each other. A Black Numenorean would be not much better, as Black or not, he would be so much alike to the hated Dunedain of Gondor.
Solution? - Appoint a Nazgul - one of the Dark God's Nine Angels - and everyone is honored and elated.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I don't deny that MOS had a high rank - probably he was the highest ranking MORTAL man in Mordor. I still think he had to bow even to the least of the Nine, though. The immortal Nazgul were entirely on another level, and while any mortal was replaceable, the nazgul were not.

Indeed and I never contradicted that. This is obvious. But the fact that MoS, or a non-Nazgul Gothmog would have to bow in front of even the least of the Nine does not have anything to do with the fact that a non-Nazgul Gothmog could be second in rank after the WK. If Sauron appointed him for that, then he simply is and the eight remaining Nazgul have different appointment, meanwhile.

Concerning the parallels you draw, with good will I find them unstable. You cannot compare Sauron and WK and put WK to one place in Barad-Dur and to one place in Minas Morgul, no, I think this is not a good way to illustrate this.

But anyway, if there was a person who was similar to MoS, only he was not mere administrator but also a soldier and an officer, then I believe the Orcs, Easterlings, Southrons and all others could obey him with no problems. This is the point about having the authority from Sauron himself - for example if a Man came there, but said "I am the Mouth of Sauron", well, that surely means something for all the allies. Of course, this is also about personal "charisma" (in WK's case, rather fear), but if someone - and no matter who he was in real - named Gothmog (for the intellectuals knowledgeable about history at least a little bit, the name itself gives the feeling of authority) had also at least some personal charisma, well, then, at the moment the Easterling, Southron etc. generals are told (before the battle by Sauron or by WK himself, probably) "this is your superior, obey him or die", no problem.

[Gordis]

You realize, Legate, that making Gothmog a mortal appointed the WK's second by Sauron, you are inventing a very powerful charismatic new character - maybe higher ranking than the MOS. Yet Tolkien told us nothing about him. He told us much about MOS, but nothing about Gothmog.
Why?
Because he was a nazgul.