Anti-Dwarves

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Farael

Well Alatar, there seems to be a mixup here, or I'm not understanding things correctly. You say:

Me, not clear?!?

However, you don't take "Dwarves-Dwarves" as an answer. Yet Valar-Valar, Maia-Maia are set there as opposites. Ok, so they are exceptions as they are higher beings. But then we have hobits-hobbits and I can't say that Sam and Ted Sandyman are as polar opposites as Elves-Orcs. Sandyman, even if a fool, was just that. Misguided and wrong, and possibly had a seed of "evil" in his heart. But he was still a hobbit and wouldn't have done unhobbit-like things (such as murder).

Melkor 'took' certain creatures and twisted ("perverted") them as shown in the list, such as elves/orcs and ents/trolls. Men needed no outward disfiguration as they could be good or evil, and were apt to join Melkor without much - if any - twisting.

Melkor, though Valar - Valar, became something completely different. He was no longer 'holy' as proved by the touch of a Silmarillion. He also could no longer take on an angelic form (Sauron loses this ability as well). So, although he was from the same stock as the others, he devolved into something completely different.

But what of Dwarves? Sure, there were Dwarf - Dwarf wars, and nobody liked the petty ones (they were always being petty), but did Melkor lack the ability to pervert these beings? Or, as stated that these are beings of a completely different genesis, could twisting them not be possible, only persuading or breaking?

And to me, given time, Ted would end up like Gollum or Grima - these human cousins would be like other races of humans in Middle Earth.

[Farael]

But what defines "evil" if not Morgoth/Sauron? fighting for him is clearly "evil", no matter what your reasons are. Cruelty and lies are clear evil behaviours, but we see that elves can do it themselves, and I don't think anyone would say elves are EVIL.

So if we say that men could be swayed to be evil and needed no "corrupting" what's to say that Dwarves could not? Clearly they fought for the "bad guys" and if so, they at least condoned (if not partaked in) cruelty and "evil ways".

It is stated that dwarves could not be corrupted like elves-orcs or men-ringwraits, but then we can't hold evil men and good men in the same light as elves and orcs. After all, evil men weren't "corrupted" but rather talked into worshipping Morgoth and all those bad bad things.

IF anything, I just stumbled upon it myself... men-ringwraits or even men-orcs (there's some saying that there were orcs that descended from corrupted men). But if we take good men and evil men we have to take good dwarves and evil dwarves as a Dwarf/anti-dwarf comparison

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Farael

and I don't think anyone would say elves are EVIL.

I would. Individuals elves can be evil, and if one believes that Melkor used elves to create orcs, methinks that he started with the worst of the elves, then simply continued to nudge them further down the road.

So if we say that men could be swayed to be evil and needed no "corrupting" what's to say that Dwarves could not? Clearly they fought for the "bad guys" and if so, they at least condoned (if not partaked in) cruelty and "evil ways".

Plastic creatures that we are, we need take no other form to express our evil ways. I just wondered if Dwarves would display some outer sign of their perversion.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I see your point, alatar, but I don't think your arguments are very strong.

Reread them next week after they've spent some time at the gymnasium.

I mean, maybe at the Maiar-Maiar thing you can talk like that, but definitely not in the Hobbit-Hobbit thing. Not even in Sandyman's case and, in fact, not even in Gollum's. However the Hobbits may be in fact Men, there are no definite anti-hobbits as a whole faction, there are bad hobbits, but that varies from Sackville-Bagginses through Sandyman to Gollum. But to place the equation - or rather, X-mark between hobbits A and hobbits B you'll need first to find a hobbit society somewhere else that is "evil" in general, like some Easterling-hobbits or something. But that's based on the society, which I believe was not the point of view you took. Genesis-based you have either to place the Hobbits all under Men or you need also to find some counterpart to them. And this is the stance you took, or so I understood it, genesis-based, yet you are using individuals as examples in the case of hobbits.

I think that I understand what you think that I'm saying, but...My point regarding anti-hobbits is that, as posited above, if we were to start with the worst - Ted and Smeagol - then with time we could theoretically get an entirely different species. If Ted could go to the dark side, and Gollum could become a murderous cannibal, then it stands that I could get a bunch of the same, given the resources of Melkor/Sauron and time. And doesn't Gandalf state that, heretofore, the Dark Lord ignored or did not notice the hobbits? But what if he, or better, Melkor did?

And by the way, how do the Drúedain fit into the scheme?

Not sure, but I noticed in RotK that there's a subtype of orc that is used as a tracker, being good at sniffing and such, similar to Ghân-buri-Ghân and the other Woses.

Originally Posted by zxcvbn

I can't understand why so many people are saying "I can't accept Dwarves as evil counterpart to Dwarves!" And why not? We have good Men and corrupted Men. Similarly there can be Dwarves and corrupted Dwarves(Tolkien said that the Dwarves of the East were 'corrupted' in similar manner to the Easterlings).

My original question, or thought, was that Melkor used what was on hand to create his armies and help. He used elves for orcs, ents for trolls, dogs (or nice wolves) for wargs, and who knows what dragons. What could or did he make with the Dwarves? Was he at a loss regarding these creatures, or did he make something from them?

Dragons do seem to have similar traits as Dwarves, methinks...

[zxcvbn]

Originally Posted by alatar

My original question, or thought, was that Melkor used what was on hand to create his armies and help. He used elves for orcs, ents for trolls, dogs (or nice wolves) for wargs, and who knows what dragons. What could or did he make with the Dwarves? Was he at a loss regarding these creatures, or did he make something from them?

He MAY have succeeded in simply corrupting some Dwarves, like his successor Sauron(even though there's no mention of that in the Silmarillion).

Originally Posted by alatar

Dragons do seem to have similar traits as Dwarves, methinks...

Eh? You lost me there. I Can't think of any similarity apart from thae fact that they both love gold. IMO the closest counterpart to the Dragons,if any, are the Eagles.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by zxcvbn

He MAY have succeeded in simply corrupting some Dwarves, like his successor Sauron(even though there's no mention of that in the Silmarillion).

I was hoping for something more grand, like a new species.

Eh? You lost me there. I Can't think of any similarity apart from thae fact that they both love gold. IMO the closest counterpart to the Dragons,if any, are the Eagles.

Dragons covet riches, gold, jewels, etc, as do dwarves. Dragons seem less social; can't ever remember reading about dragons being friends or having mates, much like the Dwarves (okay, so that's a stretch). Dwarves seemed to be somewhat resistant or resilient to Dragon fire, like when Glaurung is assailed by the Dwarves (i.e. Azaghâl) in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad. Was this due to a shared nature? The Rings of the Dwarves were consumed by the Dragons, as noted here. Why is it when you have one, you can find the other? In HoME, Min the petty dwarf takes over guarding Glarung's horde in Nargothrond when the Dragon goes off to pursue the children of Hurin.

I can see the Eagles comparison in that they both fly and are intelligent/wise, but not much more than that.

[Farael]

Originally Posted by alatar

Reread them next week after they've spent some time at the gymnasium.

I'm sorry, I know I should add SOMETHING to the conversation, but this is just... ARGH!! Alatar, I don't know what's worse, your joke or the fact that I laughed about it

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I see your point, alatar, but I don't think your arguments are very strong. I mean, maybe at the Maiar-Maiar thing you can talk like that, but definitely not in the Hobbit-Hobbit thing. Not even in Sandyman's case and, in fact, not even in Gollum's. However the Hobbits may be in fact Men, there are no definite anti-hobbits as a whole faction, there are bad hobbits, but that varies from Sackville-Bagginses through Sandyman to Gollum. But to place the equation - or rather, X-mark between hobbits A and hobbits B you'll need first to find a hobbit society somewhere else that is "evil" in general, like some Easterling-hobbits or something. But that's based on the society, which I believe was not the point of view you took. Genesis-based you have either to place the Hobbits all under Men or you need also to find some counterpart to them. And this is the stance you took, or so I understood it, genesis-based, yet you are using individuals as examples in the case of hobbits. It works with the others, since you are not working with societies (like "good" Gondorians and "evil" Easterlings but "good" Aragorn and 99% of M-E and really corrupted Mouth of Sauron), but not with hobbits. Sandyman is still a hobbit. And Wormtongue, Wormtongue is still a Man! Watch out that you don't step off of your line. Because your theory and division, as you outline it, is acceptable as long as you observe it from this genesis-based POV, but that means leaving most of the "ordinary" Easterlings and Southrons on the left side, as "good" men. Or either you have to move all who commit evil deeds, but on the outside remain the same, to the right side, but then you also have to accept with the evil Dwarves as the Anti-Dwarves. You have to choose the point from which you are looking at this, but that means either agreeing with Dwarves or backing away with Hobbits.

And by the way, how do the Drúedain fit into the scheme?

(crossposted with Farael)