Anti-Dwarves

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by alatar

Then what are the anti-Dwarves, or did Tolkien (via Melkor etc?) not create them?

Were there any? It seems Eru had a plan of sorts - he made his Ainur, they created a vision of the world, Eru brought it to life. That whole shebang included Morgoth, Morgoth's visions, his creations etc. It seems reasonable to think Eru may have caused things to be 'paired', maybe as a response to what Morgoth sang of, maybe it was intended that way all along...but Dwarves are outside of this.

They were made outside and away from the Music. They only got life because Eru felt sorry for Aule's creations. So it would make perfect sense if Dwarves didn't have any natural enemy or opposite.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Were there any? It seems Eru had a plan of sorts - he made his Ainur, they created a vision of the world, Eru brought it to life. That whole shebang included Morgoth, Morgoth's visions, his creations etc. It seems reasonable to think Eru may have caused things to be 'paired', maybe as a response to what Morgoth sang of, maybe it was intended that way all along...but Dwarves are outside of this.

They were made outside and away from the Music. They only got life because Eru felt sorry for Aule's creations. So it would make perfect sense if Dwarves didn't have any natural enemy or opposite.

Interesting thought - something created by one's creations that is 'outside the plan.' Really puts Dwarves in a special category.

Regardless, wouldn't Melkor be hard at work making/twisting something to counter this possible threat? Or are his creations right in front of us - hobbits! They have some dwarven qualities, but for some reason Melkor couldn't make them into the fighting machines that he may have intended. Hmmm...

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by alatar

Interesting thought - something created by one's creations that is 'outside the plan.' Really puts Dwarves in a special category.

Regardless, wouldn't Melkor be hard at work making/twisting something to counter this possible threat? Or are his creations right in front of us - hobbits! They have some dwarven qualities, but for some reason Melkor couldn't make them into the fighting machines that he may have intended. Hmmm...

I always knew Hobbits had a sinister side....it's the hairy feet and lack of shoes which gives them away....never trust a hippy

But seriously, Melkor had a go at making his own creations, but that was one of Eru's 'laws of the universe', that only Eru could create new sentient beings - which is why there was the brou-ha-ha about him giving Aule's Dwarves life. Melkor could only corrupt what was already there.

Hmmm, maybe this us why Eru gave the Dwarves life? Because otherwise Melkor may have got his hands on them and turned them into some non-sentient, humanoid, ruthless zombie army?

[Imperica]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

...but Dwarves are outside of this.

They were made outside and away from the Music. They only got life because Eru felt sorry for Aule's creations. So it would make perfect sense if Dwarves didn't have any natural enemy or opposite.

But are they really? I disagree that they are outside/away from the Music. Eru sang in the Music before the Ainu did and it's hard for me to think that he did not perceive Aule's creations would come or even sing about it himself. I don't have my Silm handy but when Melkor causes discord in the Music, Illuvatar says to him something to the effect of "Whatever you do stims from me" meaning all of Melkor's actions were "Meant to be" and it would be the same for Aule and the rest of the Valar...

My head is jumbled but I hope that makes some sense...

[zxcvbn]

I can't understand why so many people are saying "I can't accept Dwarves as evil counterpart to Dwarves!" And why not? We have good Men and corrupted Men. Similarly there can be Dwarves and corrupted Dwarves(Tolkien said that the Dwarves of the East were 'corrupted' in similar manner to the Easterlings).

And as the poster above said, Dwarves certainly ARE part of the Music of the Ainur. It is natural that all Vala creations should have their source in Eru. Men are the only race that have some freedom from the Music.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Imperica

But are they really? I disagree that they are outside/away from the Music. Eru sang in the Music before the Ainu did and it's hard for me to think that he did not perceive Aule's creations would come or even sing about it himself. I don't have my Silm handy but when Melkor causes discord in the Music, Illuvatar says to him something to the effect of "Whatever you do stims from me" meaning all of Melkor's actions were "Meant to be" and it would be the same for Aule and the rest of the Valar...

My head is jumbled but I hope that makes some sense...

True! Logically speaking, if Eru is omnipotent and he causes Melkor to be what he is, then he must also cause Aule to be the sort of Valar who would create Dwarves. I don't know if he actually creates him to make them in that it is fated, or if he just creates him with the possibility of or capacity for making them, but it must be at least the latter if he is omnipotent. Even so, they can still be seen as 'outside the Music' in a way as they are not directly created by Eru but via a third party, whereas Eru creates the Elves and Men himself after hearing the Music.

[Farael]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Even so, they can still be seen as 'outside the Music' in a way as they are not directly created by Eru but via a third party, whereas Eru creates the Elves and Men himself after hearing the Music.

Wouldn't that make men and elves outside the music, whereas dwarves who were created by a Valar (who were the ones making the music) part of the music?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Farael

Wouldn't that make men and elves outside the music, whereas dwarves who were created by a Valar (who were the ones making the music) part of the music?

No, no way - the Children, Men and Elves alike, were in the Music, but:

Originally Posted by Ainulindalë

For the Children of Ilúvatar were conceived by him alone; and they came with the third theme, and were not in the theme which Ilúvatar propounded at the beginning

So they were there, only not in the beginning. Where I believe (or would conclude, by logic) that the Dwarves were not in the Music, because Aulë got the idea of creating them only when he saw that there are still no Children coming and the world is quite empty (or so he felt). So, in the Music, Aulë was probably singing about stone and gems and metals and whatever, but not about Dwarves.