Time to fix Gandalf versus the Witchking

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Galendor

There are probably 20 or so scenes in the movies, this among them, that if redone slighly or cut out entirely, would have greatly improved the movies by better matching the books without losing much or any "mass appeal". I wish it had been done! Certainly if Tolkien himself could have been consulted and obeyed, the movies would have been greatly improved, and I think without necessarily alienating those viewers with little or no knowledge of the books, or reducing profits.

Do you have a list of scenes, and if you have that much time on your hands , could you give the details - whether the scene should be deleted or altered?

[Eönwë]

I don't like that scene. It is the only scene that it made sense to get rid of (obviously the others had to be cut because otherwise it would be to long, but still, they are good additions). The Witch-king could never even get near beating Gandalf. Olorin (Gandalf) was a Maiar and the witch-king was a human (though I do think he was a "black numenorean" so he might have had some Maiar blood in him after all, but Gandalf is fully Maiar). A human, however powerful, could never kill, or even win a fight against a Maiar. And Olorin was chosen to help the peoples of middle earth, in the same that Eonwe was (not being as strong as the target but still being comparatively strong to them). This scene could never happen. Gandalf killed a Balrog, a Maiar, a being of divine descent, to get beaten by a man? The Balrog, by the way, was not even a servant of Sauron, but of Morgoth, not much weaker than Sauron, in fact. Gandalf was sent by Manwe, and even though he refused at first, Gandalf went for a reason (varda makes a sneaky comment that hints that he is stronger than Saruman (curumo in Valinor). Gandalf is an immortal, and could not properly be killed anyway. Also, the witch-king has neither the authority nor the power to break Gandalf's staff as he did during the movie.

[alatar]

Eönwë, you obviously haven't read the 525 posts on this thread, which will demonstrate, as it did to me, that not everyone sees it your and my way.

Welcome to the Downs, by the by.

[Sauron the White]

from Galendor

Sauron the White - regarding the glycogen use issue in the runner's muscles, if this is a concern then how do we explain Shadowfax? This horse ran at incredible speeds for very long distances, far beyond the ability of any "normal" horse. This isn't physiologically possible in the real world. If an argument is made that Gimli could not sustain his long run, then wouldn't the same argument apply to Shadowfax's performance? If not, why?

Shadowfax is described as one of the mearas - horses of the gods. It was said that Orome brought the first meara to Middle-earth direct from Valinor. I believe that puts him in a far different class than a mere dwarf.

[Quempel]

So Gimli is to be judged by real human standards, yet Shadowfax is to not be judged by real horse standards? Aulë created the dwarves. If Shadowfax is a creation of a Vala he is allowed special powers. But 'mere' dwarves, also a creation of a Vala, are not allowed any special powers. Which is it? Vala created beings have some special ablities or they don't. This is this.

[Sauron the White]

Quempel - you are confusing apples with cinderblocks. The Mearas were creatures of the Valar in Valinor and then exported to Middle- earth by Orome with their special genetics, abilities and talents. Dwarves are a creature of Middle-earth. They were not given the special abilities from Valinor as the mearas were.

They are two extremely different races and breeds of creatures. It is not logical or intellectually consistent to infer that the rules which apply to one apply to the other simply because they both occupy Middle-earth in the later part of the Third Age.

[Quempel]

The dwarves were created by a Vala, in middle earth before Valinor was created. It's quite intresting the logic twist you seem to be using. If the story doesn't fit in your world you twist it around so it does.

Unlike Elves and Humans or, in Middle Earth, Men, the Dwarves are not counted among the Children of Ilúvatar. They were created by Aulë the Valar.


And wasn't Shadowfax descended from Felarof, Eorl the Young's horse, and the original lord of all horses-the first mearas? but Shadowfax was not an actual meara that was from Valinor, but a meara from middle earth descended from the meara's of Valinor? Sure he was the horse lord of the third age, but he was not Felarof.

[Sauron the White]

Quempel ... could you please cite where it says that either
a- the Valar gave short, heavy, dwarves in cumbersome gear the power to run 45 miles per day without training, or
b- one of the Valar waved a magic wand and specifically gave Gimli that same ability

You are confusing two very different things here or are perhaps really stretching a bad argument for what purpose I do not know.

[Quempel]

No I am simply calling your bluff. You say that Shadowfax was able to run and endure more because he was a Meara from Valinor, but he is not from Valinor, he is a meara from ME.

Yet with the same brush you say that Gimli, who is neither Elf nor Man and whose race was created by a Vala is under the same standards as Man.

So either those created by the Valar have different more extraordinary powers and don't fall under the same rules as Elf and Men, or they don't have extraordinary powers.

And I would like you to point out where it says dwarves can't run 45 miles per day. You keep saying they can't, yet you say Shadowfax is able to out run mortal horses because of his special abilities that he recieved from the Valar.

Either mythical creatures have special ablities or they don't. One can not pick an choose which mythical creature has certain abilities to fit into one's closed view of things.

Dwarves were not human. They did not have the same qualities as human's. They were in fact older than Elves, but Eru made Aule put them to sleep so the Eldar could be the first born. Dwarves lived longer than human, even the Dunedain. But according to you since they were short and stocky they must fall under the lowest possible human standards. They are not human.

I still find it funny that you can be fine with a horse, a perfect specimen of a horse with strong legs and a flowing mane, to be able to have abilities above and beyond regular horses. But a short stocky dwarf can't do anything exceptional.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Well, in a world where we can have semi-divine superhorses, why should we talk about 'mere' Dwarves? We know very little about Dwarven physiology, but what we do know says that they are amazingly tough, strong, immune to disease, and have amazing stamina.

Why therefore must we assume that Dwarves' physical chemistry is like ours?

You ask for evidence- the evidence is that Gimli did it.

[Sauron the White]

from William Cloud Hicklin

You ask for evidence- the evidence is that Gimli did it.

What that is evidence of is poor writing and lack of knowledge on the part of the author. It is very obvious that JRR Tolkien knew nothing of long distance running and it shows in this very example.

Is there evidence that Dwarves could do this feat other than Gimli? I see none and none has ever been presented when I asked for it.

I realize I am throwing stones through somebodys stained glass windows of the cathedral which gaurds the altar upon which they worship, BUT ... its evidence of poor research by Tolkien himself. You see good people, JRRT was human. He wrote one heck of a book - my personal favorite book for what that may be worth - but he was a human being and is such is human and flawed and can make mistakes. That does not make LOTR a bad book. Its still a great book. But its not divinely inspired and perfect.

from Quempel

Yet you refuse to acknowledge that dwarves have any ablities at all and assign to them human standards, when they are not human. Elves having special ablities is ok, dwarves no. Horses having special abilities is ok, dwarves no.

You are putting words into my mouth that I did not speak or write. Dwarves indeed have abilities. They are strong and sturdy and have endurance to work at backbreaking jobs when many men probably could not do so. They are fierce fighters when aroused and have amazing abilities with stone and rock. Yes indeedy they have some very wonderful abilities.

However, the ability to run 45 miles each day, and then repeat it for a second day and then a third day, all with no mentioned trained, all wearing heavy and cumbersome gear, and over varied terrain is not one of those abilities.


Shadowfax is not a mere horse. He is the best of a chosen breed of creatures created by the Valar in Valinor and exported to Middle-earth for very special purposes. He is not a mere horse.

I am supposing you have never seen a football lineman run 10 miles a day with full equipment on.

There are many things in this world I have not yet seen and that is one of them. So what? This is this. This is not something else. We were not discussing the abilities of football lineman to run ten miles in full uniform.

[alatar]

Note that Dwarves, made by Aule, were designed to live in a world in which Melkor ruled supreme. That's from the Sil, though I haven't my copy on me to quote chapter and verse. Was the original horse a spirit, or something created?

But we've covered all of this before.

StW, I keep forgetting that you're the diorama guy.

[Quempel]

Well if Tolkien didn't have any knowledge about running, then it can be said he had even less knowledge of horse running, because no horse could do what Shadowfax did. And since we are applying the same standards to dwarves as we do real humans, it is only fair to apply the real horse standards to Shadowfax.


And I highly doubt Tolkien knew nothing of running, being he was in the armed forces during WWI, I would imagine that he actually did have to run while in the armed forces, since it's a pretty standard requirement for a standard soldier.

[Sauron the White]

Yes Alatar we have covered all this before. And in doing so cheesed off a bunch of people who kept saying ENOUGH ALREADY.

Dioramas? Yes I remember dioramas. In case anyone cares

http://www.flickr.com/photos/17649735@N00/?saved=1

[Quempel]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

You are putting words into my mouth that I did not speak or write. Dwarves indeed have abilities. They are strong and sturdy and have endurance to work at backbreaking jobs when many men probably could not do so. They are fierce fighters when aroused and have amazing abilities with stone and rock. Yes indeedy they have some very wonderful abilities.

.

They are strong and sturdy and have endurance to work at backbreaking jobs when many men probably could not do so See you assume the wrong endurance, you assume it is endurance to do backbreaking jobs and only backbreaking jobs. It's your assumption and nothing more.

As for the linemen, they run more than 10 miles in full gear. And they are usually stocky men, much like dwarves. They do the 'back breaking' work on the field, they are not the svelt thin recievers who can run fast. But they run just as many miles as the recievers do, not as fast, but they still run it. And yes they do it for conditioning but with their full set of pads on, which are bigger and heavier than recievers. And as any good football coach knows it has to be with all the gear and pads on or they can't do it in the game. The same can be said for Gimli, sure he had all his gear on, sure he couldn't run the fastest, but that does not mean he could not run. Put Gimli's gear on Aragorn and I would bet Aragorn would crumble in less than a day.

And could you point out where it says Shadowfax is the best of a chosen breed of creatures created by the Valar in Valinor and exported to Middle-earth for very special purposes. Because the Sil and LoTR I have read says he is the descendant of those horses, not those horses. Shadowfax descended from Felarof, Eorl the Young's horse. The best of Shadowfax's bread was Felarof. Is Felarof Shadofax's daddy, grand daddy, great grand daddy? It also says the mearas lived the same length as men in one place, so that would put a whole bunch of generations between Felarof and Shadowfax, even if the men were Dunedain.



Alatar,

I have said the Dwarves were made by Aule, a Valar.

[Sauron the White]

from Quempel

Because the Sil and LoTR I have read says he is the descendant of those horses, not those horses.

Are you denying that Shadowfax was a member of the meares, a direct descendent of the special breed created in Valinor by the Valar? If you agree that he was one, I need not continue. If you deny that he was one, there is no point in arguing with you. Either way I see no reason to continue going around like two hamsters in a wheel.

Again, about the football lineman running ten miles? I have no memory of that debate. Again, this is this. This isn't something else. This is this. Dwarves are not football players. Their gear is not a football uniform. And now you bring Aragorn into it? This nearly leaves me speechless. Nearly.

[Galendor]

Originally posted by Alatar:

Do you have a list of scenes, and if you have that much time on your hands , could you give the details - whether the scene should be deleted or altered?

No, Alatar - I spoke too carelessly and I apologize for it. I don't really have the time or expertise to compile such a list to back up my claim, so it was a pointless claim to make. I can think offhand of scenes that I might like to see eliminated, but as far as arguing for alterations I am probably not up to it in expertise. Sorry again.

But I do tend to agree with Quempel on the issue of Shadowfax, dwarves, and physiological endurance. If you were to poke and prod Shadowfax, would he not feel like a real horse? And if you were to (sorry) dissect Shadowfax, would he not be composed of tissues? And if you looked closer, would not these tissues be composed of cells? And then proteins and nucleic acids?

Or was he composed of pure magic designed to look and act like a real horse?

I suspect that Shadowfax looked, felt, and smelled like a real horse. If he had a father and a mother, then I would imagine he came into being when a sperm cell fertilized an egg cell, and grew from there. He seemed to exist in the physical world, he did get tired if memory serves, gravity seemed to have an effect on him, he did not fly but seemed held to the ground by the same force that held Gimli to the ground. But he raced along far faster and further than any horse we know of. So why shouldn't Gimli be able to run longer and faster than one of us can here in the "real" world? He was a heroic, stout little member of a different species than us, so we can only guess at the metabolic pathways governing his physiology. And Gimli might have a long history of strengthening his body by running up mountains, for all we know. Plus, the oxygen content of the Middle Earth atmosphere might have been higher, permitting a longer run.

Besides, if we are willing to make an argument as STW does that Gimli should be constrained by the biochemistry that governs our bodies, then where does it all end with science versus LOTR? A physicist could come here and make the argument that there is no way that putting a ring of metal on your finger can make your physical form, and everything you are wearing, become invisible (i.e. no longer absorb, reflect, or refract light), especially while you remain solid and able to interact with other physical objects (pick them up, kick them, etc.).

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Quempel

Alatar,

I have said the Dwarves were made by Aule, a Valar.

Sorry; I started with some point, began the research, then thought...what am I doing? Been here, done this wind up before.

Most likely I could post for both sides, having read the arguments and know (somewhat) the posters' points. Even considered using StW's superb miniature work as part of a reply, but...

I'm back to sitting this out until Eönwë responds to my last post.

[Farael]

Originally Posted by alatar

I'm back to sitting this out until Eönwë responds to my last post.

Can I give it a try?

While Gandalf was indeed Olorin the Maiar, he was not quite a "normal" Maiar. Unlike what all Ainur could do, namely taking a "human-like" shape, Olorin was "incarnated" in Gandalf. So even though Olorin was a Maiar and unkilable, Gandalf was something else, and he could be killed. As a matter of fact, the Balrog kills Gandalf... and then he is sent back (reborn, in a way).

Let's say that the WK stuck a sword right through Gandalf... Gandalf would've been dead. Not Olorin, and perhaps Olorin would've been ticked and wrecked holy (he's a demi-god after all) chaos on everything that was going on.

Still, I don't think that the WK had a reasonable chance of killing Gandalf, even if it was technically possible. As mentioned before, Gandalf defeated a Balrog, which is FAR stronger than the WK.

Having said that, and going back to the glycogen comment, what if dwarves had an exo-skeleton made of Chitin, like most bugs do?

I mean, they lived in dark places, literally under a rock... furthermore, what if dwarves could metabolize their exo-skeleton to allow them to perform "super-dwarven" feats of skill?

And what if Shadofax's mane was actualy a storage of polysacharides?

~Farael, the biochemist -_-

[Sauron the White]

LOTR - At the end of the Chapter The White Rider in THE TWO TOWERS Legolas isspeaking to Gandalf about seein Shadowfax in the distance and says he is

"a very great horse. I have not seen his like before."


"Nor will you again', said Gandalf. 'That is Shadowfax. He is the chief of the Mearas, lord of the horses, and even Theoden, King of Rohan, has never looked on a better.

And earlier, in the chapter The Council of Elrond, Gandalf says of Shadowfax,

"There is one among them might have been foaled in the morning of the world."
That is a reference to th earliest days in Valinor.

Others agree. Here is some info from The Encyclopedia of Arda

In the old north of Middle-earth lived a proud race of wild horses, long-lived, wise and fleet of foot. The legends of Men said that their ancestors had been brought from the West by Béma, their name for the Vala Oromë.

Gimli is but one of many Dwarves with no particular blessings or abilities which would distinguish him from his bretheren. There is no foundation for ultra-marathon running in any account of the rest of the Dwarves in any of the books.

ANd one (hopefully last) other point. It is not my contention that nobody could run 45 miles each day for three days. Highly trained elite ultra marathoners , the elite of the elite, have done that. My contention is that an untrained Dwarf could not. Shadowfax, on the other hand, can run and run and run as Gandalf has said. He is the equal to those extra-highly trained ultra-marathoners.

[Sauron the White]

Estelyn... in fairness I was asked a question by Galendor who asked me for a response after I made a very short joke. I have repeatedly tried to give shorter answers and if you look at my last post in this thread you will see that I asked anyone interested to review the previous threads where this was discussed at length. I share your feelings not to have this thread turned into a discussion that has already been held elsewhere.

My reference to Holy was not of Tolkien - I will be glad to correct that for you with a substitution of a different word.