Elven Children

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Galin

Hmmm, but preceding this passage it was said the Eldar 'aged' at the same speed in Aman as they had done in their beginning upon Middle-earth.

True, but the catch part seems to be "beginning upon Middle-earth", which may refer to a time when the race of the elves was less affected by the marring of Melkor and developed more naturally.

And following it, it is noted (Aman and Mortal Men) that the Valar could not alter the speed of their growth.

Agreed, but the changing factor for the elves is not Aman, but the marring of M-E, which affected their development, while in Aman such change was all but eliminated. Thus, the elves developed on Aman as they would have on Arda Unmarred.

The source of Joy in Aman for Elves was comparative: the Eldar grew at the same rate but 3000 years of change about them in Aman was much less than in Middle-earth; in Middle-earth '... all things in comparison with themselves were fleeting, swift to die or pass away.'

Hm, I am not sure what you mean. Do you imply that the marring did not affect their development? The first counter-argument that comes to mind is Finrod's words about the exiled elves who feel the effect of Middle Earth upon themselves.

Then again, this may all be in vain - MT may be an out-standing text in this matter too, with little if any potential to be reconciled.

[Galin]

'Hmmm, but preceding this passage it was said the Eldar 'aged' at the same speed in Aman as they had done in their beginning upon Middle-earth.' Raynor replied: True, but the catch part seems to be "beginning upon Middle-earth", which may refer to a time when the race of the elves was less affected by the marring of Melkor and developed more naturally.

Good point. Add Finrod's statement especially and I must agree with this suggestion.

'And following it, it is noted (Aman and Mortal Men) that the Valar could not alter the speed of their growth.' Raynor replied: Agreed, but the changing factor for the elves is not Aman, but the marring of M-E, which affected their development, while in Aman such change was all but eliminated. Thus, the elves developed on Aman as they would have on Arda Unmarred.

And after rereading the context more fully it seems to mean the Eldar remained 'unchanged' with respect to the ideal of Arda Unmarred in any case.

'The source of Joy in Aman for Elves was comparative: the Eldar grew at the same rate but 3000 years of change about them in Aman was much less than in Middle-earth; in Middle-earth '... all things in comparison with themselves were fleeting, swift to die or pass away.' Raynor replied: Hm, I am not sure what you mean. Do you imply that the marring did not affect their development? The first counter-argument that comes to mind is Finrod's words about the exiled elves who feel the effect of Middle Earth upon themselves.

I was including (considering the topic of the thread) the notion of the Eldar growing to maturity in 3000 years even in Middle-earth. My idea (though I am now reconsidering it in light of this exchange) is that the Marring did not necessarily affect the phase of maturation to adult. I'm not offering the following as correct necessarily, but rather simply how it shaped my possibly flawed idea.

If I have guessed the passage you mean, the context of Finrod's words is not about Elf-children (not that you said it was) but rather the question of longevity inspired him here, and his remark that 'the change of their Bodies is swifter than in the beginning' leads him to guess that their hroar will prove less strong to last than they were designed to be. This seems to suggest fading in my opinion (though far off in the future), and interestingly in Author's Notes on the 'Commentary' (note 7) it's stated that Finrod had already 'glimpsed' the process of waning or fading.

In Aman the text gets around to longevity again, and the 'Stuff of Arda': 'But their bodies, being of the Stuff of Arda, were nonetheless not so enduring as their spirits; for the longevity of the Quendi (...) Therefore, after the vitality of the hroa was expended in achieving full growth, it began to weaken or grow weary. Very slowly indeed, but to all the Quendi perceptibly'. Then the explanation moves once again to fading.

Of course the growth to adulthood is still 'ageing', and the idea that the Melkor ingredient affects various aspects of growth seems reasonable. With mortals, growing to adulthood is still the path to death despite that it usually (I would think) is considered a phase of strengthening and vigor (as opposed to weakening and growing weary). Is the actual growth to adulthood affected by the 'debility introduced by Melkor' into the substance of Arda? Or rather the strength of the hroa to continue undimmed for thousands and thousands (and thousands) of years after maturity is gained.

'Some indeed of the Eldar doubt that any special grace or blessing was accorded to them, other than admittance to Aman. For they hold that the failure of their hroar to endure in vitality unwearied as long as their fear -- a process which was not observed until the later ages -- is due to the marring of Arda, and comes of the Shadow, and of the taint of Melkor that touches all the matter (or hroa) of Arda, if not indeed of all Ea. So all that happened in Aman was that this weakness of the Elvish hroar did not develop in the health of Aman and the Light of the Trees.' Aman and Mortal Men

So the 'weakness' did not develop, and earlier in the text (section Aman) it was noted (as above) that after the vitality of the hroa was expended in achieving full growth, it began to weaken. Say an Elf reaches full maturity at around 20 or 21 yéni but much later in life fades because his or her hroa is weakened by the Marring (basically the weakening showed no affect in early life). But if Finrod's reference is to something else other than the actual 'end result' of fading (which it appears to be, as he has noticed 'change' that leads him to guess about the ability of the hroa to last) why draw the line at 'no notable effect' before adulthood? Perhaps I should not.

Perhaps the two texts are compatible in this regard? and we have a changing growth rate to adulthood (in Middle-earth) from the early days that leads to the numbers in L&C?