Elven Children
 

While I was reading Unfinished tales something caught my eye....

I was wondering about Elf children....How long would it take to grow to adult stature? And what would they be like? would they have all the same teenage problems as Men do? What would the Elf-children learn and do each day? I can find little more info on Elven children and want to know if anyone else knew more.

Morgoth's ring and the laws and customs of the Eldar therein has the info you require.

Basically an elf takes at leat 50 and up to 100 years to be fully grown.

At first they develop quicker than mortals, able to walk talk and dance by the end of their first year but then linger in the "first spring of childhood". Roughly speaking it work out that an human child will have the physical development of an elf child two and a half times older.
They need little teaching or governance and I will look up the rest if someone doesn't beat me to it!!!

We've decided to let this one _slide_.;)
[/jk][/spam]

Where in Morgoth's Ring can this be found?

Now, now Folwren there is no need to swear...

....
....

ohhh so Morgoth's Ring is one of the books in HoME.... anyway.

I think this thread raises another question. If an elf takes 50 years to be fully grown, how long does s/he take to mature? would a 45 year old elf be mature like a grown up man or would he behave like a 45 year old teenager?

It is mostly found in the Later Quenta Silmarillion:

That is really interesting. I wish Tolkien had spent some time writing a few Eldar children into LoTR, perhaps in Lorien and Rivendell. An elf with the body of a teen and the insight of an old man would have, to me, really highlighted that "sadness" that all elves had deep inside them.

I agree Farael, I wish Tolkien would have included an Elven child somewhere. Hmmmmm that could make a very interesting and fun RPG...... :)

Thanks everyone on your input, it was exactly what I was curious about. Feel free though if anyone else knows more, please share!!

I also found this....

There fell Celegorm by Dior's hand, and there fell Curufin, and dark Caranthir; but Dior was slain also, and Nimloth his wife, and the cruel servants of Celegorm seized his young sons and left them to starve in the forest. Of this Maedhros indeed repented, and sought for them long in the woods of Doriath; but his search was unavailing, and of the fate of Elured and Elurin no tale tells.

How sad. I found only this about any Elven children granted they are not full elves, only part. To bad they never made a story about what happened to them.

I think by the time of the LOTR there would have probably been no elven children in Rivendell. More likely in the silvan realms of Lorien and Mirkwood. The elves were fading, and as the burden of their years lay heavier on them they would have been unlikely to have inflicted it on others. It is likely that Arwen was one of the last elves born at RIvendell - hence the name Evenstar.

just thought I would refresh this thread:D

What about Nellas, the 'witness' in the Narn/CoH?

I think she was just a 'simple' soul.

Laws and Customs is one source, yes, but another text from Morgoth's Ring reads:

And also ('they' are the Númenóreans):

Hmmm.

Perhaps the correct meaning of the phrase is that it compares the rate of growth of things in Middle Earth and the growth of Eldar in Aman. Anyway, if we are to compare Myths Transformed and Tolkien's other writings, we should have in mind that at least part of the MT texts constitue what Chris called "a fearful weapon against [Tolkien's] own creation".

Hmmm, but preceding this passage it was said the Eldar 'aged' at the same speed in Aman as they had done in their beginning upon Middle-earth. And following it, it is noted (Aman and Mortal Men) that the Valar could not alter the speed of their growth.

The source of Joy in Aman for Elves was comparative: the Eldar grew at the same rate but 3000 years of change about them in Aman was much less than in Middle-earth; in Middle-earth '... all things in comparison with themselves were fleeting, swift to die or pass away.'

True, but the catch part seems to be "beginning upon Middle-earth", which may refer to a time when the race of the elves was less affected by the marring of Melkor and developed more naturally.
Agreed, but the changing factor for the elves is not Aman, but the marring of M-E, which affected their development, while in Aman such change was all but eliminated. Thus, the elves developed on Aman as they would have on Arda Unmarred.
Hm, I am not sure what you mean. Do you imply that the marring did not affect their development? The first counter-argument that comes to mind is Finrod's words about the exiled elves who feel the effect of Middle Earth upon themselves.

Then again, this may all be in vain - MT may be an out-standing text in this matter too, with little if any potential to be reconciled.

Good point. Add Finrod's statement especially and I must agree with this suggestion.

And after rereading the context more fully it seems to mean the Eldar remained 'unchanged' with respect to the ideal of Arda Unmarred in any case.

I was including (considering the topic of the thread) the notion of the Eldar growing to maturity in 3000 years even in Middle-earth. My idea (though I am now reconsidering it in light of this exchange) is that the Marring did not necessarily affect the phase of maturation to adult. I'm not offering the following as correct necessarily, but rather simply how it shaped my possibly flawed idea.

If I have guessed the passage you mean, the context of Finrod's words is not about Elf-children (not that you said it was) but rather the question of longevity inspired him here, and his remark that 'the change of their Bodies is swifter than in the beginning' leads him to guess that their hroar will prove less strong to last than they were designed to be. This seems to suggest fading in my opinion (though far off in the future), and interestingly in Author's Notes on the 'Commentary' (note 7) it's stated that Finrod had already 'glimpsed' the process of waning or fading.

In Aman the text gets around to longevity again, and the 'Stuff of Arda': 'But their bodies, being of the Stuff of Arda, were nonetheless not so enduring as their spirits; for the longevity of the Quendi (...) Therefore, after the vitality of the hroa was expended in achieving full growth, it began to weaken or grow weary. Very slowly indeed, but to all the Quendi perceptibly'. Then the explanation moves once again to fading.

Of course the growth to adulthood is still 'ageing', and the idea that the Melkor ingredient affects various aspects of growth seems reasonable. With mortals, growing to adulthood is still the path to death despite that it usually (I would think) is considered a phase of strengthening and vigor (as opposed to weakening and growing weary). Is the actual growth to adulthood affected by the 'debility introduced by Melkor' into the substance of Arda? Or rather the strength of the hroa to continue undimmed for thousands and thousands (and thousands) of years after maturity is gained.

So the 'weakness' did not develop, and earlier in the text (section Aman) it was noted (as above) that after the vitality of the hroa was expended in achieving full growth, it began to weaken. Say an Elf reaches full maturity at around 20 or 21 yéni but much later in life fades because his or her hroa is weakened by the Marring (basically the weakening showed no affect in early life). But if Finrod's reference is to something else other than the actual 'end result' of fading (which it appears to be, as he has noticed 'change' that leads him to guess about the ability of the hroa to last) why draw the line at 'no notable effect' before adulthood? Perhaps I should not.

Perhaps the two texts are compatible in this regard? and we have a changing growth rate to adulthood (in Middle-earth) from the early days that leads to the numbers in L&C?