Serving animals in HOBBIT film

[davem]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

The idea that the entire book revolves around this terrible and powerful Ring which can corrupt anyone and must be destroyed or civilization will fall stops dead in its tracks by the introduction of a character who
a- can wear the ring with no effect
b- has no interest in it at all
c- seems to be the one being over which it has no power over but could not care less
d- will do nothing to help the situation
e- does absolutely nothing to further the basic plot or advance the story

Yes - I stated that the Bombadil 'mythus' was imported wholesale into M-e. The Hobbits have crossed into another 'world', where different rules apply, & for that very reason are able to get a new perspective on the Ring, the Quest & the nature of their world.

You cut out TB from the book, you lose nothing but doggerel and the worst set of mismatched brightly colored clothing in the history of literature.

No, you lose one of the most fascinating things Tolkien ever wrote, & you lose some of his most beautiful & evocative writing.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by davem

No, you lose one of the most fascinating things Tolkien ever wrote, & you lose some of his most beautiful & evocative writing.

I'd still shove Bombadil in Orudruin (along with his chapters) if he started spouting his sub-vogon poetry at me and you wouldn't want to sit next to him on a long haul flight. However I usually content myself with pretending he doesn't exist and eliding the early chapters....

[Meriadoc1961]

Sauron the White wrote:

"The idea that the entire book revolves around this terrible and powerful Ring which can corrupt anyone and must be destroyed or civilization will fall stops dead in its tracks by the introduction of a character who
a- can wear the ring with no effect
b- has no interest in it at all
c- seems to be the one being over which it has no power over but could not care less
d- will do nothing to help the situation
e- does absolutely nothing to further the basic plot or advance the story"

I disagree completely. Bombadil is an incarnation of Iluvatar, the creator. He is, therefore, light-hearted and care-free because he is the creator. He "will do nothing to help the situation" is faulty, for he intervenes and saves the ring and the hobbits who were trapped by the Barrow-wight, who was a servant of the Dark Lord. But I agree he "will do nothing to help the situation" directly involving the destruction of the ring for Tolkien understood the concept of free will. Iluvatar did not make his creation one that was filled with programmable robots. His creatures could think for themselves and make choices based upon right or wrong because he created them as moral beings (sound familiar?). He does advance the plot of the story because it is he who gives hope, both to Sam and Frodo, as well as to Gandalf and other characters in the book. Bombadil (Iluvatar) is the light that Sam realizes could never be reached by the darkness.

Merry

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Originally Posted by Meriadoc1961

Sauron the White wrote:

"The idea that the entire book revolves around this terrible and powerful Ring which can corrupt anyone and must be destroyed or civilization will fall stops dead in its tracks by the introduction of a character who
a- can wear the ring with no effect
b- has no interest in it at all
c- seems to be the one being over which it has no power over but could not care less
d- will do nothing to help the situation
e- does absolutely nothing to further the basic plot or advance the story"

I disagree completely. Bombadil is an incarnation of Iluvatar, the creator. He is, therefore, light-hearted and care-free because he is the creator. He "will do nothing to help the situation" is faulty, for he intervenes and saves the ring and the hobbits who were trapped by the Barrow-wight, who was a servant of the Dark Lord. But I agree he "will do nothing to help the situation" directly involving the destruction of the ring for Tolkien understood the concept of free will. Iluvatar did not make his creation one that was filled with programmable robots. His creatures could think for themselves and make choices based upon right or wrong because he created them as moral beings (sound familiar?). He does advance the plot of the story because it is he who gives hope, both to Sam and Frodo, as well as to Gandalf and other characters in the book. Bombadil (Iluvatar) is the light that Sam realizes could never be reached by the darkness.

Merry

Hmmm... that is a good point, but I didn't think of Tom as a reincarnation of Iluvatar, he gives hope to the Hobbits though. Especially when they got trapped by the Barrow-wight, and he also saved them... now I wouldn't want to be trapped in a plane for a flight that has some long hours with Frodo, but not with Bombadil.

[Sir Kohran]

I admit, what I said was very mean and not nice at all, and I deserve to be reprimanded for it,

Well thank you for having the decency to apologise.

I have been insulted consistently by StW and once or twice by you

I haven't tried to personally insult you and would never want to do that to any member. My apologies if anything I've said has come across as rude.

Just because some people think that Bombadil is a waste of paper and time doesn't mean that everyone has to agree and it doesn't mean that you're right about what you think about him.

I don't think he's a waste of paper and time, I just don't think he belongs in LOTR.

Nor did I say everyone had to agree. I just took offense at your implication that I was 'less intelligent' for not 'loving' Bombadil.

I find (& I'm generalising here) that those who don't like the OMW/TB/Barrow Downs episode don't like Tolkien's constant 'digressions' into M-e history, & also tend to skip the poems as unnecessary too (& all that description of landscape!- Why didn't Tolkien just tell the story?- a decent editor could have trimmed the whole thing down to about 250 pages & it would have been much better for it, etc, etc.).

Well I don't know about everybody else but I've always liked Tolkien's 'digressions', particularly when it's the Hobbits hearing about it; I always grin when I read about Sam's comments on Beren.

The poetry of Tolkien is fantastic. What I like about it is that it's the complete opposite of the usual text - the book describes lots of things in great detail (obviously because they're happening in the 'present' of the story) whereas the poetry is non-specific - the characters and events and places are described vaguely, allowing the reader to visualise these ideas in their head, and it gives off this wonderful dreamy feel.

Admittedly I sometimes find the descriptions of landscape a little tedious, but I think that's only because I've read it so much.

If the Shire is a depiction of rural England around the time of (Queen Victoria's) Diamond Jubilee, as Tolkien stated, the Old Forest/Downs episode is a perfect depiction of an older, wilder England.

I'm aware of what Tom represents - he's a sort of throwback to the old days when people genuinely believed in fairies and spirits and pixies in the forests and mountains, and in this regard he succeeds. I just don't think he fits in very well with the story at hand. With the departure from the Shire and the entry into the big, unknown world with the rumour of the Black Riders following them, this is a period of rising tension for the Hobbits - and yet suddenly they're thrown into a colourful, strange, fairy tale forest governed by a bumbling, carefree man in yellow boots. The whole sequence breaks the 'feel' of the story at that point for me.

However, I do like the evolution of the threats - we begin with the dangerous yet somewhat laughable Old Man Willow and end with the creeping darkness of the Wights.

Bombadil is an incarnation of Iluvatar, the creator.

Where was this stated? I thought Bombadil was supposed to be an enigma. At the very least the chapter never states this - how many readers, when discovering this skipping man in yellow boots, thought 'this must be an incarnation of M-E's god'?

And narratively, those three chapters with TB form a valuable bridge between the familiarity of The Shire to the more perilous realms; the Old Forest is a foreshadowing of Fangorn, the Barrow Downs of the Paths of the Dead or Shelob's Lair.

Interesting point, and ironic in that during TTT movie, Treebeard in Fangorn actually used some of Bombadil's words (mostly the reassurance against the night segment).

[Finduilas]

Originally Posted by Sir Kohran

Well thank you for at least having the decency to apologise.

I haven't tried to personally insult you and would never want to do that to any member. My apologies if anything I've said has come across as rude.

You may not have tried to, it may just be the way you word it on the computer. Saying "At least you have the dececy to apologize" (paraphrazed) sounds condescending, and as if Folwren has no other decency. I don't know if that is how you meant it, I am just explaining how it might be taken.

On computers it is very hard to tell what tone a person is saying something in. That is why on the Downs I try to stay away from sarcasm and rude remarks. I have a particularly bad way of saying what I don't mean. If you didn't mean to sound condescending and rude to Folwren, I understand. If you did.... Um, as I said, I try to stay away from sarcasm and rude remarks.

But, since you followed that sentence up with "I haven't tried to personally insult you and would never want to do that to any member. My apologies if anything I've said has come across as rude." I will assume you didn't.

Originally Posted by STW

Folwren.... you deserve no reprimand . Your posts are from the heart and good spirited so you deserve only a smile.

That is nice of you to say. I have never liked you better.

~Finduilas~

[Sir Kohran]

You may not have tried to, it may just be the way you word it on the computer. Sayint "At least you have the dececy to apologize" (paraphrazed) sounds condescending, and as if Folwren has no other decency. I don't know if that is how you meant it, I am just explaining how it might be taken.

Hm, I see what you mean. What I meant was that although I found the remark insulting, Folwren 'at least' had the decency to apologise. I think I will edit that bit out; I see why it could be condescending.

On computers it is very hard to tell what tone a person is saying something in.

It's pretty much impossible. This is why smilies are so useful - they give an idea of what the person really thinks. and can make the difference between a humorous jab and an insult.

If you didn't mean to sound condescending and rude to Folwren, I understand.

Good. There's more than enough bad feeling and insults in real life; we don't need any here. I hope that in the future we can avoid having to discuss stuff like this and get back to what's important - Tolkien.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Sir Kohran

I'm aware of what Tom represents - he's a sort of throwback to the old days when people genuinely believed in fairies and spirits and pixies in the forests and mountains, and in this regard he succeeds. I just don't think he fits in very well with the story at hand. With the departure from the Shire and the entry into the big, unknown world with the rumour of the Black Riders following them, this is a period of rising tension for the Hobbits - and yet suddenly they're thrown into a colourful, strange, fairy tale forest governed by a bumbling, carefree man in yellow boots. The whole sequence breaks the 'feel' of the story at that point for me.

I think that's because FotR, particularly Book 1, has a mood & atmosphere all its own, & is in many ways very different from the rest of the story. Humphrey Carpenter stated that he preferred FotR to the other volumes, because it reminded him of John Buchan.

Bombadil, The Old Forest, The Barrow Downs, all help contribute a mood of strangeness & add a dimension of mystery to the world of M-e - its a world with other 'dimensions'/realities: the world of the OF & the Downs is no 'stranger' or more out of place than the wraith world Frodo experiences when he puts on the Ring, or Valinor itself come to that. As with the world of Smith, Faery exists alongside the 'real' world. Frodo & the Hobbits pass into a different 'reality', with different rules, & a different kind of 'logic', but the whole experience helps them see their own world with new eyes. Frodo is exposed to danger, taught old lore, & tested (will he put on the Ring in the Barrow & desert his friends in order to escape?), but most importantly he is shown that 'there are more things in heaven & earth than are dreamed of in his philosophy. He also, let's not forget, is given a glimpse of the Undying Lands in Tom's house.

I can't concieve of M-e without Bombadil, the OF & the Downs & maybe that's another reason I have a problem with the movies - if you remove the 'Bombadil' dimension you end up with a 'sword & sorcery action epic'. Lose Bombadil & you actually make a character like Treebeard more difficult to accept, because he & the Ents seem too 'outlandish' - a world which has Tom, Goldberry, Old Man Willow & Barrow Wights in it is a world which has room for walking, talking trees.

[Sir Kohran]

Bombadil, The Old Forest, The Barrow Downs, all help contribute a mood of strangeness & add a dimension of mystery to the world of M-e - its a world with other 'dimensions'/realities: the world of the OF & the Downs is no 'stranger' or more out of place than the wraith world Frodo experiences when he puts on the Ring, or Valinor itself come to that. As with the world of Smith, Faery exists alongside the 'real' world. Frodo & the Hobbits pass into a different 'reality', with different rules, & a different kind of 'logic', but the whole experience helps them see their own world with new eyes. Frodo is exposed to danger, taught old lore, & tested (will he put on the Ring in the Barrow & desert his friends in order to escape?), but most importantly he is shown that 'there are more things in heaven & earth than are dreamed of in his philosophy.

I just find it strange in that the whole sequence feels very 'positive' - Tom is happy and humorous, and this clashes with my view of what should be an increasingly dark and wary section of the story. To me it feels like having a horror story and then, just before the monster appears, pausing for an interlude with the Teletubbies. Admittedly that's a gross exagerration but that's the feel of it.

that's another reason I have a problem with the movies - if you remove the 'Bombadil' dimension you end up with a 'sword & sorcery action epic'.

So how would you have done it? How would you fit the Bombadil sequence into a two-three hour movie? Every second counts in a story this big and I can't see how the Bombadil sequence could be anything less than ten minutes.

I wouldn't call it a 'sword and sorcery action epic' - a title like that befits something truly low quality like Eragon - but that's down to opinion.

Lose Bombadil & you actually make a character like Treebeard more difficult to accept, because he & the Ents seem too 'outlandish' - a world which has Tom, Goldberry, Old Man Willow & Barrow Wights in it is a world which has room for walking, talking trees.

The difference to me being that the Ents were treated entirely seriously and 'felt' like a part of the story, no more out-of-place than the Balrog or the Eagles. Tom on the other hand does not feel like part of that world.

[Lord Halsar]

Originally Posted by Meriadoc1961

Bombadil is an incarnation of Iluvatar, the creator. He is, therefore, light-hearted and care-free because he is the creator. He "will do nothing to help the situation" is faulty, for he intervenes and saves the ring and the hobbits who were trapped by the Barrow-wight, who was a servant of the Dark Lord. But I agree he "will do nothing to help the situation" directly involving the destruction of the ring for Tolkien understood the concept of free will. Iluvatar did not make his creation one that was filled with programmable robots. His creatures could think for themselves and make choices based upon right or wrong because he created them as moral beings (sound familiar?). He does advance the plot of the story because it is he who gives hope, both to Sam and Frodo, as well as to Gandalf and other characters in the book. Bombadil (Iluvatar) is the light that Sam realizes could never be reached by the darkness.

Merry

I believe that it is clearly stated on some of the most Tolkien-informatable sites, *cough* *Encyclopedia of Arda* *cough, cough*, that Iluvatar has NO physical incarnation in Arda WHATSOEVER save for the Flame Imperishable itself.

[Lalwendë]

Without weirdness like Bombadil or Bilbo I fear Lord of the Rings might stray too far into 'sword and sorcery' territory, a world of rights and wrongs and muscular heroes. But it doesn't. It is a world with enigmatic figures who cannot neatly be put down on one 'side' or another. Bombadil brings depth and interest. He, along with figures such as Shelob, Fell Beasts, Dragons, Eagles, Woses and Barrow-wights, shows us that this is a diverse world, populated by beings outside the usual Elf/Man/Dwarf hierarchy.

In our own world we have Men as a species, plus a lot of animals we understand (or at least think we do, who can explain the mind of the domestic cat? ), but we also have creatures we do not understand. We have tales of Loch Ness Monsters, Yetis, Boggarts, Fairies, etc. Had Tolkien created his own world without all of these types of things then it would have been all the more poverty stricken, grey and depressing for it.

Stylistically, if one of Tolkien's aims was to create something he could dedicate to England then it was only right that he create something with odd, enigmatic figures in it, such as are found in English folklore already. And narratively, those three chapters with TB form a valuable bridge between the familiarity of The Shire to the more perilous realms; the Old Forest is a foreshadowing of Fangorn, the Barrow Downs of the Paths of the Dead or Shelob's Lair.