Gandalf Vs. The Witch King

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Um, Essex, it's a straight paraphrase from Marquette MS 4/2/36 (part of the Hunt for the Ring complex), and so it represents Tolkien's opinion, not yours or mine.

[Gwathagor]

And it's NOT a cannon!

[Essex]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

Um, Essex, it's a straight paraphrase from Marquette MS 4/2/36 (part of the Hunt for the Ring complex), and so it represents Tolkien's opinion, not yours or mine.

If it is then I retract my statement of course. I'll re-read Hunt for the Ring again

EDIT- Hang on - can't find this AT ALL in Hunt for the Ring. not sure of the Marquette notage you use - I've got unfinished tales out, Hunt for the Ring section but can't find the text - where abouts is it exactly?

or is it in one of the later middle-earth history books?And anyway, back to the point why Mansun raised this

This proves the Witch King was not the force some posters think he is. He does experience fear from a variety of things.

My argument (and it's been the same for a few years now!) is not who is more powerful (My Dad's bigger than your Dad) - but that Gandalf COULD have been wounded and killed by a 'lesser' being - Gandalf was not Invincible. He did die once already you know!

[Gwathagor]

"Canon". The word is "canon".

[Essex]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

"Canon". The word is "canon".

thank you. noted.

Originally Posted by Essex

Gandalf was not Invincible. He did die once already you know!

I agree, he can & has died, in certain circumstances. Tolkein deliberately did not want to test whether this included the Witch King or not. Therefore we can only make a subjective judgement. Even still, the LOTR makes clear the fact that the Witch King also experiences great fear for his skin in some circumstances. Where does this fear come from if he is not vulnerable himself?

Also, what signs of fear Gandalf shows when concerned with the Witch King is crucial (I have mentioned this often before). He is only anxious of the Witch King, but is this caused by him alone, or by the sheer numbers of Mordor forces crushing on Minas Tirith, & Frodo going to Cirith Ungol etc? The pressure was enormous, & even Sauron in this situation would experience great anxiety, even nervousness (fear).

If I read Gandalf experiencing terror as the Black Captain approached at the gate in Minas Tirith, then I would happily admit the Witch King received a great enough power boost which could give him a good chance of breaking Gandalf. But this did not materialise in the slightest; what we read was a confident & majestic Gandalf who orders with authority the Captain of a 100,000 strong Mordor host behind him to leave at once.

"Old Fool! Old Fool! This is my hour. Do you not know Death when you see it? Die now and curse in vain!

This massively important quote also suggests the Witch King does not know the true nature of Gandalf. With Gandalf being old, this does not have much relevance to his ability to succeed in battle, as he proved in Moria. As for dying, only the mighty Balrog of Morgoth has managed to inflict this upon Gandalf the Grey in 3,000 odd years of his existence, & even then Gandalf killed it first. Was the siege of Gondor really the Witch King's hour? Did he forget the small matter of Rohan here, not to mention Gandalf & co.? Nor did he know for sure where the Ring was, or who had it in possession. Not a very wise Lord this Nazgul proved to be - he failed to learn the lessons of his near miss with Frodo at Weathertop, & Merry takes advantage of it. All of what the Witch King says here is actually totally to the contrary - the above quote describes exactly what was about to happen to himself, & this is a true bit of genius by Tolkein.


If the Witch King dies in this enhanced form, does the power of Sauron become significantly weaker?

I have prolonged this thread as long as possible, but I think I am ready to retire! I have posted one of the best posts in this enormous thread (see above). Gandalf would have won, but he may have died himself by breaking the rules of the Istari set by Eru.

[obloquy]

Breaking the rules of the Istari does not result in death, and Gandalf had no need to fear the Witch-King even without compromising his integrity.

Originally Posted by obloquy

Breaking the rules of the Istari does not result in death, and Gandalf had no need to fear the Witch-King even without compromising his integrity.

"Thag you very buch."

[Essex]

Originally Posted by Mansun

I have posted one of the best posts in this enormous thread (see above).

And you're modest too!

PS - unfortunately one never retires from this thread. You'll be back again. That's why I asked the mods to close this thread a few weeks back - it's the only way to stop it! It's just too tempting to go back and repeat oneself every couple of months or so.

Originally Posted by Essex

And you're modest too!

PS - unfortunately one never retires from this thread. You'll be back again. That's why I asked the mods to close this thread a few weeks back - it's the only way to stop it! It's just too tempting to go back and repeat oneself every couple of months or so.

I have been keen to hear other poster's thoughts on how the Balrog compares to the Witch King in stature, power & even rank in another thread (see the Books forum). This, I believe, is where the real answer lies in the Gandalf vs the Witch King debate.

As for closing this thread, I would think someone else would try & re-open it again later under a similar thread & start the whole thing alight again . . .

I have borrowed this from another thread:-

Originally Posted by Mansun

But just look at what Wikipedia has to say of Balrogs:-

A Balrog is a demon from J. R. R. Tolkien's Arda legendarium. A Balrog (Sindarin for "Demon of Might"; the Quenya form is Valarauko) is a tall, menacing being in the shape of a man, having control of both fire and shadow. One was noted to wield both a flaming sword and fiery whip of many thongs.

The Balrog induces great terror in friends and foes alike and can shroud itself in darkness and shadow. It can only be defeated by some person or thing of equal power, and amongst its own evil allies is rivalled only in its capacity for ferocity and destruction by the dragons, but the Balrogs are more powerful than dragons.[1]

According to The Silmarillion the Balrogs were originally Maiar, of the same order as Sauron, Saruman and Gandalf.

Can the enhanced Witch King match such a foe? It appears not, since he would need to be at least in equal power to Sauron, Saruman, Gandalf & the Balrog of Morgoth to be so. This ends the debate once & for all - Gandalf, Balrogs, Saurman, Sauron are all essentially closely matched, that we know. The Witch King, however powerful a sorcerer, cannot fall into this supernatural category & must therefore be deemed a weaker opponent.

Now I really cannot add more to this issue - all the evidence points to a likely victory for Gandalf, since the Witch King must be of at least equal power to kill a Maiar. So from the dark side, effectively, only Sauron or a Balrog (or the evil Saruman) could have potentially killed Gandalf.