Gandalf Vs. The Witch King

[Essex]

Originally Posted by Mansun

First of all apologies for double posting, it is necessary as this is a separate point.

Somebody posted a long time ago about the fact that the Lord of the Nazgul was shaken by the fire of Gandalf at Weathertop, & that he also narrowly missed being pierced by a deadly blade, Sting, wielded by Frodo which would have been more lethal to him than the wound suffered by Frodo at the hands of the Morgul knife. I would very much like to know where this extract came from, since it also suggests that in the aftermath the Witch King was left reeling & even afraid of both Gandalf & Frodo.

Quotes from Strider:

They have drawn off for the time being. But not far, I fear. They will come again another night, if we cannot escape. They are only waiting, because they think that their purpose is almost accomplished, and that the Ring cannot fly much further........................................
'Look!' he cried; and stooping he lifted from the ground a black cloak that had lain there hidden by the darkness. A foot above the lower hem there was a slash. 'This was the stroke of Frodo's sword,' he said. 'The only hurt that it did to his enemy, I fear; for it is unharmed, but all blades perish that pierce that dreadful King. More deadly to him was the name of Elbereth.

[alatar]

The 500th post!

What amazes me - actually it doesn't - is how much discussion can occur on what an author may (or may not) have thought perfectly clear. Tolkien may not have given this scene a second thought, and PJ may have thought that the 'Gandalf prone' scene was exactly what was called for in his interpretation of the texts. And yet we've reached 500 (and more, if we count other posts in other threads).

These are what schisms are made of...

Originally Posted by Essex

Quotes from Strider:

This is not the quote I was referring too. The one I was talking about is not from the book itself, but from another source.

An encyclopedia of Middle-earth in the Third Age

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"The Witch-king was troubled by what had occurred at Weathertop. He had been shaken by his confrontation with Gandalf and he feared Aragorn. But he was also concerned that the Ring-bearer had resisted him even though he was not a person of great power. He feared that Frodo was in league with the High Elves because he invoked the name of Elbereth.

The Witch-king also recognized that Frodo's sword from the Barrow-downs had been made by the Dundedain for the war against Angmar. He knew that the blow that had narrowly missed him would have been deadly to him. (In fact at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, Merry Brandybuck would use the same kind of sword to deal the Witch-king a mortal blow.)

Because of these concerns, the Witch-king failed to observe the withdrawal of Frodo and his companions from Weathertop and he lost track of the Ring. It was not until later on October 7 that he resumed pursuit".

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This is what I have been looking after for sometime! This proves the Witch King was not the force some posters think he is. He does experience fear from a variety of things.

Alatar - your target was to reach 500 posts; mine is to reach 20,000 views!

[Essex]

The above Encyclopedia of Middle-earth is someone's opinion, just like yours and mine. It is not Cannon. Therefore it is not proof!!

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Um, Essex, it's a straight paraphrase from Marquette MS 4/2/36 (part of the Hunt for the Ring complex), and so it represents Tolkien's opinion, not yours or mine.

[Gwathagor]

And it's NOT a cannon!

[Essex]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

Um, Essex, it's a straight paraphrase from Marquette MS 4/2/36 (part of the Hunt for the Ring complex), and so it represents Tolkien's opinion, not yours or mine.

If it is then I retract my statement of course. I'll re-read Hunt for the Ring again

EDIT- Hang on - can't find this AT ALL in Hunt for the Ring. not sure of the Marquette notage you use - I've got unfinished tales out, Hunt for the Ring section but can't find the text - where abouts is it exactly?

or is it in one of the later middle-earth history books?And anyway, back to the point why Mansun raised this

This proves the Witch King was not the force some posters think he is. He does experience fear from a variety of things.

My argument (and it's been the same for a few years now!) is not who is more powerful (My Dad's bigger than your Dad) - but that Gandalf COULD have been wounded and killed by a 'lesser' being - Gandalf was not Invincible. He did die once already you know!

[Gwathagor]

"Canon". The word is "canon".

Originally Posted by Essex

Gandalf was not Invincible. He did die once already you know!

I agree, he can & has died, in certain circumstances. Tolkein deliberately did not want to test whether this included the Witch King or not. Therefore we can only make a subjective judgement. Even still, the LOTR makes clear the fact that the Witch King also experiences great fear for his skin in some circumstances. Where does this fear come from if he is not vulnerable himself?

Also, what signs of fear Gandalf shows when concerned with the Witch King is crucial (I have mentioned this often before). He is only anxious of the Witch King, but is this caused by him alone, or by the sheer numbers of Mordor forces crushing on Minas Tirith, & Frodo going to Cirith Ungol etc? The pressure was enormous, & even Sauron in this situation would experience great anxiety, even nervousness (fear).

If I read Gandalf experiencing terror as the Black Captain approached at the gate in Minas Tirith, then I would happily admit the Witch King received a great enough power boost which could give him a good chance of breaking Gandalf. But this did not materialise in the slightest; what we read was a confident & majestic Gandalf who orders with authority the Captain of a 100,000 strong Mordor host behind him to leave at once.

"Old Fool! Old Fool! This is my hour. Do you not know Death when you see it? Die now and curse in vain!

This massively important quote also suggests the Witch King does not know the true nature of Gandalf. With Gandalf being old, this does not have much relevance to his ability to succeed in battle, as he proved in Moria. As for dying, only the mighty Balrog of Morgoth has managed to inflict this upon Gandalf the Grey in 3,000 odd years of his existence, & even then Gandalf killed it first. Was the siege of Gondor really the Witch King's hour? Did he forget the small matter of Rohan here, not to mention Gandalf & co.? Nor did he know for sure where the Ring was, or who had it in possession. Not a very wise Lord this Nazgul proved to be - he failed to learn the lessons of his near miss with Frodo at Weathertop, & Merry takes advantage of it. All of what the Witch King says here is actually totally to the contrary - the above quote describes exactly what was about to happen to himself, & this is a true bit of genius by Tolkein.


If the Witch King dies in this enhanced form, does the power of Sauron become significantly weaker?

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Mansun

Because of these concerns, the Witch-king failed to observe the withdrawal of Frodo and his companions from Weathertop and he lost track of the Ring. It was not until later on October 7 that he resumed pursuit".

I thought that the lack of pursuit was two-fold: One, the W-K guessed, sans evidence, that Frodo would quickly go over to the dark side from the Morgul wound and two, that the noon day sun always drove out the images of the proto-Fellowship from the minds of the Nazgul, and so each evening they had to start over again, the analogy would be you looking for something such as a rabbit in a field, and each night having to stop due to the lack of light.

And truly the Nazgul knew fear.