The completed Tale of Gondolin was published 13 years ago?!

[davem]

Originally Posted by johnboy3434

What I was wondering was why CRT hasn't snatched it up for a wider release.

'cos its not a genuine work by JRR Tolkien. Lewis has simply taken different versions of Tolkien's work & stuck them together. Its fanfic of the worst kind, because it purports to be Tolkien's work. (And from the accounts of people who have read it it isn't all that good. Lewis did not have the authorisation to produce this work & it was done without supervision by CT. This is not something that can be done if the editor wants his work to be accepted, let alone taken seriously.

Even though Lewis was the one that pieced it together (on an unrelated note, this guy isn't related to C. S. Lewis, is he?), the Estate holds the rights to the text itself (apart from any forwards, afterwards, or indexes, of course). So why don't they just release it? Most of the job is done, already. I mean, Priscilla Tolkien has a copy, and editorial work will be reduced from the normally massive job of bringing the texts into line with each other to the correction of spelling and other mere tidy-up jobs. It would be the easiest Middle-earth-related book CRT has ever had to churn out, that's for sure.

See above. This work is neither one thing or another. Its not Tolkien's work, its a collection of different bits stuck together on a whim to produce a work that Mr Lewis could put his name to in order, one assumes, to associate himself with Tolkien. CT is the authorised editor of his father's work. He has, in turn, authorised others to edit & prepare some works of his father's for publication. The fact that Lewis asked permission of Priscilla rather than Christopher for this work to be published speaks volumes. The idea that simply because a (very average, judging by the one book of Tolkien criticism of his I've read) Tolkien scholar knocks up his own version of of one of Tolkien's stories it should simply be accepted & put out as an 'officially authorised' Tolkien novel is just silly. Anyone who owns a copy of The Sil & UT could knock up their own version of the Tale of Gondolin or any other 'unfinished' work - is the Estate supposed to publish them simply because someone knocked them up on Microsoft Word? You seem to be arguing just that - because Lewis has knocked this thing up it should be published with the blessing of the Estate. Where does it stop? At best Lewis' work is an interesting curio. Personally I have no interest in reading this thing.

If they can avoid being as overly lush and elaborate as Lewis himself (obviously done to justify the $1,000+ price tag), there could be a potential profit in this.

Yes, well, vanity publishing is a term which would seem to fit Mr Lewis very well, but, (as you put it) 'churning out' books for 'potential profit' would seem to be the last thing on Christopher Tolkien's mind, thank goodness.

Originally Posted by davem

Its not Tolkien's work, its a collection of different bits stuck together on a whim to produce a work that Mr Lewis could put his name to in order, one assumes, to associate himself with Tolkien. CT is the authorised editor of his father's work. He has, in turn, authorised others to edit & prepare some works of his father's for publication. The fact that Lewis asked permission of Priscilla rather than Christopher for this work to be published speaks volumes. The idea that simply because a (very average, judging by the one book of Tolkien criticism of his I've read) Tolkien scholar knocks up his own version of of one of Tolkien's stories it should simply be accepted & put out as an 'officially authorised' Tolkien novel is just silly. Anyone who owns a copy of The Sil & UT could knock up their own version of the Tale of Gondolin or any other 'unfinished' work - is the Estate supposed to publish them simply because someone knocked them up on Microsoft Word? You seem to be arguing just that - because Lewis has knocked this thing up it should be published with the blessing of the Estate. Where does it stop?

"Not Tolkien's work?" How many liberties did this guy take? If it is fundamentally based on the actual text written by Tolkien, with nothing of drastic import added or removed, then it is Tolkien's work, just not as Tolkien would have published it. Here's an analogy: martial arts legend Bruce Lee wrote a script for a movie called "Game of Death." After he had filmed several scenes (most of them sparring sequences), he was approached by Warner Brothers with the opportunity to star in what would be the crown jewel of his acting career: "Enter the Dragon." He accepted the offer. Once the film was finished, he planned to return to GoD. Sadly, he died of cerebral edema a week before EtD was released. Five years later, Columbia Pictures bought the existing footage of GoD and filmed extra sequences to establish a coherent plot. Oddly, though, the plot had almost nothing to do with Lee's original script, other than some fight scenes and that badass yellow jumpsuit of his.

Anyway, my point is that "Game of Death" was advertised as Bruce Lee's last film, even though the majority of the scenes featuring his character merely depicted a body double. But the fact of the matter is that he was in the film, even though he didn't plan for it to turn out the way it did. Same case with Lewis. He put together a group of texts by J. R. R. Tolkien, using his own judgment (the quality of which is understandably disputable) to decide on how to go about it. While I'm sure this is not the way Tolkien would have published the Tale of Gondolin, the fact of the matter is that he did write it, regardless of how it turned out.

Of course, I'd reserve judgment on the quality of the editing for after I've actually seen it. Unfortunately, unless I win the lottery sometime soon ($4,500?!), I'll probably never get the chance.

[davem]

Originally Posted by johnboy3434

"Not Tolkien's work?" How many liberties did this guy take? If it is fundamentally based on the actual text written by Tolkien, with nothing of drastic import added or removed, then it is Tolkien's work, just not as Tolkien would have published it. . Same case with Lewis. He put together a group of texts by J. R. R. Tolkien, using his own judgment (the quality of which is understandably disputable) to decide on how to go about it. While I'm sure this is not the way Tolkien would have published the Tale of Gondolin, the fact of the matter is that he did write it, regardless of how it turned out.

'Fundamentally based on' could mean pretty much anything. You can't cut & paste together bits of an author's work, written over a period of 4 or 5 decades, change bits that don't 'fit', with nothing more than your own opinion & 'personal taste' for guidance, whip it off to a Vanity publisher somewhere to knock out 50 copies & then just expect it to be accepted & authorised for publication by the Estate. I've read some of Alex Lewis's writings, heard some of his talks &, God help me, I've even heard him sing some of his songs, & I can tell you that, while he's a halfway competent (if boring) scholar of Tolkien he's the very last person who should be allowed to edit together a text of the Tale of Gondolin.

Look, you, I, or anyone on here, could 'edit' together a 'complete' text of Beren & Luthien, whack it on Pandora & print out 50 copies. Would the fact that our effort was physically in print in book form be sufficient for the Estate to just pick it up & put it out with the JRRT monogram on the cover & new illustrations by Alan Lee?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

A comparison with The Children of Hurin is inapt: The Narn i Chin Hurin was a single work, the product of a concentrated effort over a few years, and consistent in narrative and style, even if some segments were not filled in (neither were they in the Long Tuor: the version in UT was to some extent also 'reconstructed' by CT). Whereas this pricey Gondolin project tries to merge two versions separated by nearly all of Tolkien's writing career, and the multiple revisions of history, mythology and language- it doesn't work.

Originally Posted by davem

'Fundamentally based on' could mean pretty much anything. You can't cut & paste together bits of an author's work, written over a period of 4 or 5 decades, change bits that don't 'fit', with nothing more than your own opinion & 'personal taste' for guidance, whip it off to a Vanity publisher somewhere to knock out 50 copies & then just expect it to be accepted & authorised for publication by the Estate.

Then let the bastards read it first and decide! My point is, would it really hurt to consider it? I think it's rather closed-minded to summarily dismiss it without even reading it, and fans would probably buy it. You keep on about how "this fan could write this" or "that fan can edit that." Well they didn't. This guy did, and, when you own a text that's going for $4,500 without receiving a penny, it wouldn't exactly be blasphemy to try and profit off of it, now, would it?

[davem]

Originally Posted by johnboy3434

Then let the bastards read it first and decide! My point is, would it really hurt to consider it? I think it's rather closed-minded to summarily dismiss it without even reading it, and fans would probably buy it. You keep on about how "this fan could write this" or "that fan can edit that." Well they didn't. This guy did, and, when you own a text that's going for $4,500 without receiving a penny, it wouldn't exactly be blasphemy to try and profit off of it, now, would it?

I wouldn't be surprised if CT had read it - though I don't see what that has to do with anything. It could not be published as Tolkien's work - for the reasons Mr Hicklin has given. If this work was to be given the go-ahead then where do you stop? It seems to me that this work cannot be considered genuine in any sense of the word. If Lewis' work gets the go ahead how could the Estate justify refusing to consider anything anyone knocks up which is 'fundamentally based on' Tolkien's writings?

Tolkien did not write a 'full' version of the Gondolin story (would that he had), so what you're asking to be made available is a version knocked up (with great love & respect I've no doubt) by 'some guy'. Are the Estate supposed to go through everything 'some guy' produces just to see if its 'good enough'? Again, I think you're being mislead by the fact that this version is available in a pricey edition set between two covers & mistaking it for an 'authoritative' published work. As I said, I could cobble together my own version of 'Gondolin' or Beren & Luthien & 'publish' it through Pandora & it would be available, in a nice shiny paper- or hardback volume for anyone to buy. That wouldn't make it significant or important - its just something anyone can do. If Mr Lewis wants to stick his 'fanfic' on the web he's free to do just that.

In short. If you did get hold of this book you'd have a 'nice thing' (I've seen it on sale at Oxonmoot & its certainly that - the illustrations are beautiful). But its not 'Tolkien'. Its a cobbled together, edited, altered, manipulated 'art work'. Authorising this would open the floodgates (as I said, how could the Estate accept this & reject other similar efforts?) & in no time you'd have shelves full of 'Middle-earth novels' along the lines of the Star Wars/Star Trek novels that fill the SF/Fantasy sections.

You seem to think this is 'genuine' Tolkien - & I'm not sure even Mr Lewis considers it that. Its not the BoLT version expanded. Its not the 'Long Tuor' completed. Its one individual's best shot at putting together a version of the story.

As for 'fans probably buying it' I suspect most Tolkien fans wouldn't.

[Lalwendë]

Whether Lewis did a good job or not of putting together his Tale of Gondolin is, I'm afraid, now by the by as he has blotted his copybook somewhat and the Estate ever authorising his work is as likely as little green men being found on the Moon now. There was a recent brou-ha-ha surrounding some reviews misleadingly submitted to Tolkien Society journals under pseudonyms involving Mr Lewis and his wife. There's no harm in me saying that as it's common knowledge amongst Society members. Also be careful where you buy from as a dealer is closely involved in selling their works and collectible Tolkien books for what in my experience are very high prices - which is not in itself wrong, but you can get these books for much less than the quoted prices.