Gandalf Vs. The Witch King

Originally Posted by Mansun

By the way, Eru himself increased Gandalf's power for good measure, with a prior knowledge of knowing what Sauron may do to increase the Witch King's power. With this in mind, Eru would not have left a debt in Gandalf's power versus the Witch King!

This qoute wins the argument in favour of Gandalf the White, & virtually proves that he would indeed be victorious against the Witch King in battle. Not that this counts too much in context with the film!

[Boromir88]

Im going to go back to some earlier points by narfforc as I think he is dead on. From the text we see that Gandalf proved greater than the Witch-King in two ways.

First, Gandalf proved indeed to be the 'greater' when it came to power. The Witch-King comes bursting through the gate, Gandalf is the only one who stands in his way (completely unafraid) and ready to confront him. The Nazgul's greatest weapon (we are told) is their fear, and they have 'no great physical strength against the fearless.' (Letter 210). The Witch-King naturally plays to his greatest asset...fear. This doesn't work as Gandalf is unafraid and even intent on chasing after the Witch-King had Pippin not come and told him about Faramir.

The second way is that Gandalf proved to be the better commander. To expand on what narfforc said, who was it that healed Theoden? Who was it that got the Rohirrim to fight against Saruman and ultimately come in to save the day? Who was it that instructed the Rohirrim to go to Gondor's aid and hence their arrival catching Mordor off guard, and the Witch-King to flee as the Rohirrim came up on the flank? Gandalf.

So, Gandalf not only overcomes the Witch-King's greatest weapon (fear), but also proves to be the better commander as The Witch-King is caught off guard by Rohan's arrival. Gandalf in both ways proves to be greater, and I cannot see how anyone cannot claim that in the confrontation with the Witch-King that Gandalf did not get the better of him.

Gandalf the White would have creamed the Witch King, end of story. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool: the Witch King is not a maia like the Balrog, just a powerful sorcerer.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Mansun

Gandalf the White would have creamed the Witch King, end of story. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool: the Witch King is not a maia like the Balrog, just a powerful sorcerer.

Sauron the Great would cream any being within Middle Earth as he too is a maia; to think that a mere hobbit (merely piling on after the pummeling Sauron took by one elf with spear and one human with sword) could bring him down is the extent of folly.

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by alatar

Sauron the Great would cream any being within Middle Earth as he too is a maia

Hmm. That is assuming that Gandalf would have remained subordinate to the rules of his mission if confronted with an opportunity to duel Sauron with no outside interference. Maybe it would have been worth it to him to forfeit his reward and "open up a can." Even you, friend alatar, seem to underestimate our boy.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by obloquy

Hmm. That is assuming that Gandalf would have remained subordinate to the rules of his mission if confronted with an opportunity to duel Sauron with no outside interference. Maybe it would have been worth it to him to forfeit his reward and "open up a can." Even you, friend alatar, seem to underestimate our boy.

Gandalf remained true and so in my opinion would remain true even if Sauron came forth. The reason he's successful is that he stays on mission and doesn't say, "That's it...I'm tired of talking with hobbits and stewards and living on cram and trying to get everyone to pitch in and help fight this battle." Gandalf gets on Shadowfax. "I'm off to Mordor with a big stick, a bad attitude and a big can of Visine. Bring it on!"

The most that he can do to Sauron and stay true is to harry the Big Eye's plans.

[obloquy]

Well my post was purely hypothetical. I realize there was no practical way for the duel to occur, and I know that Gandalf had the sense not to try to arrange it. However, if the confrontation had simply happened--say, Gandalf stumbles into Sauron's camp while everyone but Sauron have gone fishing--Gandalf would have to decide either to flee, or pull out all the stops and lay the smack down to the maximum of his potential. He already abandoned success once (though not the Rules) when he chose to confront the Balrog. Maybe he would have taken his chances with Sauron. It's more likely that he would have fled, knowing his character, but it also probably depends somewhat on the timing of the hypothetical run-in: if Sauron had come out instead of the Mouth and requested a throw-down (yeah, right!), I'll bet he would have accepted. At the very least it would occupy Sauron at a crucial moment. Books-wise, not Jackson-wise (re: Eyeball vs. Real Deal).

[Essex]

Originally Posted by Mansun

Gandalf the White would have creamed the Witch King, end of story. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool: the Witch King is not a maia like the Balrog, just a powerful sorcerer.

sigh.....

I find myself dragged back to this long winded thread.

As I said on previous posts:

David slew Goliath

Tolkien states (published in unfinished tales I think) that the Istari can be wounded and suffer injuries as mortals can.

Yes, Gandalf may well be more powerful than the WK, but that is not saying he cannot be defeated by him. The WK could get a 'lucky strike' in. If Gandalf is all powerful, why doesn't he just through a ring of protection around all of Minas Tirith and protect it that way?

The question asked years back at the start of this thread- could the WK defeat Gandalf - I say he might have had a chance - As I said before as well, LOTR is not simply black and white - if the strong always won then Sauron would not have been defeated.

Originally Posted by Essex

sigh.....

I find myself dragged back to this long winded thread.

As I said on previous posts:

David slew Goliath

Tolkien states (published in unfinished tales I think) that the Istari can be wounded and suffer injuries as mortals can.

Yes, Gandalf may well be more powerful than the WK, but that is not saying he cannot be defeated by him. The WK could get a 'lucky strike' in. If Gandalf is all powerful, why doesn't he just through a ring of protection around all of Minas Tirith and protect it that way?

The question asked years back at the start of this thread- could the WK defeat Gandalf - I say he might have had a chance - As I said before as well, LOTR is not simply black and white - if the strong always won then Sauron would not have been defeated.

Supernatural God-like Maia vs Powerful corrupted Sorcerer

If you draw fire with fire, the bigger fire will prevail. This is not a football match, whereby the weaker side can sometimes get the better of a much stronger one. Gandalf vs the Witch King is one gigantic power against a great power, the former wins hands down.

The only reason this topic has brought up a debate is due to PJ's scene, & the fact that Tolkein never really wanted us to know how weak or powerful the Witch King was. All we know is Gandalf is more powerful than a Balrog, a great maia & servant of Morgoth which is itself almost on level terms with Sauron (without his Ring) & does not even necessarliy serve Sauron. I refuse to believe nor have ever heard of anything that could suggest the Witch King is on this supernatural god-like level of power that the maia have.

Gandalf died when he killed the Balrog - would this have happened if he had killed the Witch King too? This could also be why he was reluctant to kill him. Also, if the Witch King is anything like as powerful as a Balrog, why wasn't Gandalf petrified with fear when he faced the Witch King as when he encountered the Balrog?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Then why did he send the Ringwraiths to the Shire? Didn't Sauron perceive the thoughts of his servants when they had the Ring and its bearer pinned down in Bree, on Weathertop, or at the Ford?

Tolkien addressed this in his various time-schemes and the documents excerpted for The Hunt for the Ring in UT. Apparently Sauron did *not* read his servants' minds from afar.

Sauron sent the Nine out to find "Shire" and "Baggins." he catastrophically assumed that this was near Gollum's birthplace, and the RW wasted much time combing the Vales of Anduin. The Nine only learned where the Shire was from Saruman, and in more detail from his agent (the 'squint-eyed Southerner.'). They were baffled by Frodo's detour thru the Old Forest and Strider's circitous route- they finally located the Ring again on Weathertop. But what the WK knew was *not* what Sauron knew- he only learned all this, and of the Ring's arrival in Rivendell, when the W-K made his way back to Mordor after the Bruinen (late November).

Sauron didn't pick up the trail again until messengers reached him from Moria: his response was to send out Grishnakh's force with a Nazgul to set the ambush at Sarn Gebir. The last he heard from this party, it was trailing Saruman's Uruk-hai to Isengard with two hobbit prisoners- and therefore assumed (wrongly) that either M or P was the Ringbearer, and P was a prisoner in Orthanc when he looked into the Palantir. The next hint S got was Aragorn's use of the same Stone scant hours later, and from that point Sauron was fixated on the idea that Isildur's heir had the Ring west of Anduin.

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

Tolkien addressed this in his various time-schemes and the documents excerpted for The Hunt for the Ring in UT. Apparently Sauron did *not* read his servants' minds from afar.

Sauron sent the Nine out to find "Shire" and "Baggins." he catastrophically assumed that this was near Gollum's birthplace, and the RW wasted much time combing the Vales of Anduin. The Nine only learned where the Shire was from Saruman, and in more detail from his agent (the 'squint-eyed Southerner.'). They were baffled by Frodo's detour thru the Old Forest and Strider's circitous route- they finally located the Ring again on Weathertop. But what the WK knew was *not* what Sauron knew- he only learned all this, and of the Ring's arrival in Rivendell, when the W-K made his way back to Mordor after the Bruinen (late November).

Sauron didn't pick up the trail again until messengers reached him from Moria: his response was to send out Grishnakh's force with a Nazgul to set the ambush at Sarn Gebir. The last he heard from this party, it was trailing Saruman's Uruk-hai to Isengard with two hobbit prisoners- and therefore assumed (wrongly) that either M or P was the Ringbearer, and P was a prisoner in Orthanc when he looked into the Palantir. The next hint S got was Aragorn's use of the same Stone scant hours later, and from that point Sauron was fixated on the idea that Isildur's heir had the Ring west of Anduin.

Does this bode well in a Gandalf vs the Witch King debate?

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Essex

David slew Goliath
.

Seriously, guy. Are you really claiming that the Witch-King had God on his side, and that Gandalf was a notorious antagonist of God's people, who mocked God himself? Because that's what the story of David and Goliath is about. Your ludicrous insistence on referring to that story even after its utter irrelevance has been established is baffling. I really am shocked.

Originally Posted by obloquy

Seriously, guy. Are you really claiming that the Witch-King had God on his side, and that Gandalf was a notorious antagonist of God's people, who mocked God himself? Because that's what the story of David and Goliath is about. Your ludicrous insistence on referring to that story even after its utter irrelevance has been established is baffling. I really am shocked.

On the contrary, the Witch King probably did mock Eru & saw Sauron as his true master.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by obloquy

Seriously, guy.

Essex obviously is referring to the Xena episode regarding David and Goliath.

Note that we've discussed this before.

[Essex]

Originally Posted by obloquy

Seriously, guy. Are you really claiming that the Witch-King had God on his side, and that Gandalf was a notorious antagonist of God's people, who mocked God himself? Because that's what the story of David and Goliath is about. Your ludicrous insistence on referring to that story even after its utter irrelevance has been established is baffling. I really am shocked.

It's just that sayying something like "Gandalf the White would have creamed the Witch King, end of story. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool: the Witch King is not a maia like the Balrog, just a powerful sorcerer." That's what gets my back up (the bold text)

Let's put aside the david v goliath Biblical meaning - what I'm trying to say is that the strong don't always win - upsets happen - the underdog can win. And Mansun, yes I know you won't like me comparing this with a football analogy, but Hereford beat Newcastle many years back!

And then let's add another example, more 'battle' like. a few years ago who would have thought a group of "insurgents" could hold the biggest force on this planet at bay for this long?

I put forward my other point again, which no one has answered I believe, that Gandalf has a body which can be injured or destroyed. He may have been a Maia, but his body can be destroyed. If it were possible for him to walk around with a impenetrable bubble to protect himself then fine (hang on - Extended Movie Gandalf does have one when Saruman shot at him!)

Looking back at this thread (to re read my points from before) - we've all gone round in circles on this thread many times (as Alatar aludes to above) - maybe it would be better to close this thread so people don't get so het up anymore (myself included)

mods, what do you think?

Originally Posted by Essex

Looking back at this thread (to re read my points from before) - we've all gone round in circles on this thread many times (as Alatar aludes to above) - maybe it would be better to close this thread so people don't get so het up anymore (myself included)

mods, what do you think?

Do you honestly think the Witch King was greater than the Balrog from Moria, even with the added demonic force? Because of Gandalf's triumph over this hulking foe thought to be on a comparable level to Sauron, I could never see the Witch King having enough in him to trouble Gandalf to the death. The Balrog, afterall, was a creature which haunted everyone's darkest dreams, including Gandalf's & those who dwell in Loth Lorien.

Perhaps a fault of the LOTR was that Gandalf had defeated a great enemy so early in the book (& film), meaning that only Sauron was left to cause a serious threat to Gandalf in battle. Therefore Sauron should have been deployed at the end, rather than letting him sit on his throne watching & waiting like a timeless being.

Another point, Gandalf regularly called people fools, as did other characters - why cannot then posters call others fools if they choose to?

Originally Posted by Essex

I put forward my other point again, which no one has answered I believe, that Gandalf has a body which can be injured or destroyed. He may have been a Maia, but his body can be destroyed. If it were possible for him to walk around with a impenetrable bubble to protect himself then fine (hang on - Extended Movie Gandalf does have one when Saruman shot at him!)

Isn't Gandalf able to protect his body with special spells rather like the Witch King & Sauron? Otherwise he would be as vulnerable as a Hobbit. In the human form, Gandalf is subject to the same pains, weariness, & fear as with all humans. But the key difference is he can defend himself with a power, of which only Sauron (or any other great maia) could definately contend with.