Gandalf Vs. The Witch King

[alatar]

From 'The Siege of Gondor' as found in HoME, The War of the Ring (text exactly as it appears):

Originally Posted by Tolkien

Denethor and Faramir marvel at Gandalf's power over Nazgûl. Gandalf says things are still not so bad - because the W[izard] King has not yet appeared. He reveals that he is a renegade of his own order...[?from] Númenor. 'So far I have saved myself from him only by flight - for many an age he has lain in hiding or sleep while his master's power waned. But now he is grown more fell than ever.'

<Gandalf speaking to the Pipster> 'He wields others as his weapons. I speak of one whom you have met. The Wizard King, captain of those you called the Black Riders. Most fell of all the servants of the Dark Tower. But he has not [struck out (?): yet] taken to winged steeds. [In him I am not overmatched, and yet still I am matched, for he was a member of our order before evil took him].

Then there was a sortie from the city led by the Prince of Dol Amroth kinsman of Faramir and his folk, and Gandalf at his side. In the [?notch] of time they came up, and [?two] miles from the city drove back the enemy, making great slaugther, for the enemy cavalry were [?few] and [?little]...; the Nazgûl [?would (not) stand] the onslaught of Gandalf, for their Captain was not with them.

Seems that one of the original ideas was the the Witch King was one of the Wizard kind. Even after revision he retains the title of sorcerer, which might mean that he's a staff-less wizard. So maybe PJ went back to the Witch-King's roots, seeing that in some text that Gandalf admits that he cannot 'overmatch' the Witch-King (unless the contest is smoke rings), and so has the W-K literally floors Gandalf, who would have eventually fought back, ending in a draw.

Also, being a sorcerer, could the W-K pumped himself up just for the battle, spending all his power for one last throw, knowing that if he won the day, he could sleep it off for a few eons? And, like the darkness (you had to squint to see it in PJ's version), did his overamp run out too soon, leaving him vulnerable to Merry and Éowyn?

Originally Posted by alatar

Also, being a sorcerer, could the W-K pumped himself up just for the battle, spending all his power for one last throw, knowing that if he won the day, he could sleep it off for a few eons? And, like the darkness (you had to squint to see it in PJ's version), did his overamp run out too soon, leaving him vulnerable to Merry and Éowyn?

This battle would not be a draw if the real potential of Gandalf is dragged out of him by sheer need. The reference of the Witch King being the greatest servant of Mordor is of no avail here, since a servant of Morgoth had already fallen in battle to Gandalf.

The Witch King would have been at his greatest power when Sauron still had the Ring during the second age in the battle against the Last Alliance. Since he could not even make an impact in battle there, Sauron himself had to come to rescue him & the others.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

So maybe PJ went back to the Witch-King's roots, seeing that in some text that Gandalf admits that he cannot 'overmatch' the Witch-King (unless the contest is smoke rings), and so has the W-K literally floors Gandalf, who would have eventually fought back, ending in a draw.

Oh, come on. PJ going back through the HoME drafts in the name of some sort of 'accuracy'? Mr. Wizard Wrestling Federation? Mr. Saruman-fireball? The guy who had only read the book once, twenty years before, when he began filming? No, PJ shot the scene the way he did because he thought it would be kewl, and he liked neato-keen exploding staffs, and was determined that the W-K appear suitably badass (and get another cheap laff via Pippin). Jackson here as elsewhere has all the subtlety of a brick.

Who here honestly thought that Gandalf would triumph against the Balrog when they came toe to toe in Moria? The advantage seemed with the Balrog at the time just before they started battle. Here we seem to have a similar situation, the Witch King seems to have the greater menace at face value, but who is it that would have ultimately triumphed?

[alatar]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

Oh, come on. PJ going back through the HoME drafts in the name of some sort of 'accuracy'? Mr. Wizard Wrestling Federation? Mr. Saruman-fireball? The guy who had only read the book once, twenty years before, when he began filming? No, PJ shot the scene the way he did because he thought it would be kewl, and he liked neato-keen exploding staffs, and was determined that the W-K appear suitably badass (and get another cheap laff via Pippin). Jackson here as elsewhere has all the subtlety of a brick.

That's funny; I thought that there were only a few differences from the text, as PJ and crew weren't exactly sure of the number of hairs in Gandalf's beard (they estimated) and the height of Treebeard was reduced by 10 cm due to a New Zealand safety regulation that applied to the live actors.

Other that that, it was spot on, wasn't it?

alatar keeps posting on this thread (1) to provide additional information for others from the Books! and (2) knows that if this thread cracks the 500 post barrier that the Barrow Wight himself will provide alatar with an electric dog polisher signed by Billy Boyd.

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Originally Posted by alatar

That's funny; I thought that there were only a few differences from the text, as PJ and crew weren't exactly sure of the number of hairs in Gandalf's beard (they estimated) and the height of Treebeard was reduced by 10 cm due to a New Zealand safety regulation that applied to the live actors.

Other that that, it was spot on, wasn't it?

Haha very funny (TGEW laughs at the only things that PJ got wrong on movies was Gandalf's Beard and Treebeard.) Back to Gandalf Vs. WK...
Now where was I... Oh yes, the start of my ranting,
This was a total injustice to Gandalf's character and if they should do something like that then PJ should of had Gandalf kill the WK since he wasn't a living man either he was a wizard...
Sooo I have finished if anyone has anything to add to that then they can post it.

Was Merry's blade that killed the Witch King mentioned as enchanted in the films? I do not recall that it was, meaning that any fine blade such as Orcrist (as far as the film is concerned) could probably pierce the Witch King. If so, it is definately advantage Gandalf in the film.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Mansun

Was Merry's blade that killed the Witch King mentioned as enchanted in the films? I do not recall that it was, meaning that any fine blade such as Orcrist (as far as the film is concerned) could probably pierce the Witch King. If so, it is definately advantage Gandalf in the film.

I ranted on Merry's blade here and elsewhere. If it's the blade that Merry holds right before the WK battle, then it's not magical as he has to sharpen it while in Rohan. And Gandalf's blade isn't magical either or it would have had the blue glow when Gandalf was in the Gondor siege.