'Bottom, thou art translated.'

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Originally Posted by davem

Or to get back to Tolkien

Great idea!

- is 'boss' a good translation of 'master'? Or would 'Meister' be better?

Neither - in the first German translation, it is "Herr Frodo". "Herr" can be used in several ways; the most common is as a generic term for male persons, comparable to the English "Mister". It can also mean "lord" or "master". At any rate, it is a formal way of addressing a superior, something that might seem stranger to modern Americans than to traditional Brits and Europeans, who still differentiate between friends and acquaintances and who are still aware of class differences.

Dear me, I can vividly remember the days when one did not dream of addressing an older person by her/his first name unless specifically invited to do so! And this tradition still holds here in Germany, at least partially, especially so in a formal setting such as business and education.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

Dear me, I can vividly remember the days when one did not dream of addressing an older person by her/his first name unless specifically invited to do so! And this tradition still holds here in Germany, at least partially, especially so in a formal setting such as business and education.

Oh, yes. I can remember, around 1970 or so, Major Naumann, with whom my father had shared an office for nearly a year, holding a little schnapps ceremony wherein their relationship formally changed from 'Sie' to 'du' and 'Major/Commander' to 'Hans/Bill.'

[Lalaith]

So how does the du/sie tu/vous te/usted (is that right - so long since I did Spanish...) formats work in the German, French and Spanish translations of LotR? Can anyone tell me?
And how were these decisions made I wonder, given that the original English does not have these differentiations?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Ah, excellent question, Lalaith! That is indeed an important question for translators not only of books, but also of movie dialogues for dubbing. Just where does the relationship turn personal enough to allow a transition from the formal "Sie" to the intimate "du"? Basically, one can only attempt to locate a point of time in the plot where the change would take place if it were originally written in German. That also depends on the historical period in which the story takes place. The use of the second person personal pronoun has changed in history.

The medieval feeling of LotR means that there is a form that was once used and is now considered old-fashioned, if not obsolete - "Ihr". That is what Sam uses for "Herr Gandalf". I don't have the modern German translation, so I don't know off-hand what he uses there. But a modern usage would change the flavour of the story, taking it out of ancient times.

Tolkien did give us a hint about the Hobbits' usage - he once said/wrote (sorry, I don't have the exact quote or location at the moment) that the Hobbits only use the familiar pronoun. For that reason Pippin was considered royalty by the people of Gondor, because he addressed Denethor with the familiar pronoun! Only an equal would be allowed that privilege.

That is the reason that Sam calls Frodo "Herr Frodo" (Mr. Frodo) yet uses the familiar "du" - an unlikely combination!

[davem]

Is there a difference in the German translation of Mister Frodo & Master Frodo, or is the same word used for both?

And for those in search of some light relief http://www.kombu.de/twain-3.htm

[Lalaith]

Tolkien did give us a hint about the Hobbits' usage - he once said/wrote (sorry, I don't have the exact quote or location at the moment) that the Hobbits only use the familiar pronoun. For that reason Pippin was considered royalty by the people of Gondor, because he addressed Denethor with the familiar pronoun! Only an equal would be allowed that privilege.

Yes, I remember that too...presumably Merry would have been the same with Theoden.
Can you remind me of the difference between Ihr and Sie?

I was wrong actually that there was no use of du/sie in the English original. I remember that there is a point in LotR where Eowyn addresses Aragorn as "thee". This is a more intimate form of address and it shifts the mood dramatically.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

Yes, I remember that too...presumably Merry would have been the same with Theoden.
Can you remind me of the difference between Ihr and Sie?

I was wrong actually that there was no use of du/sie in the English original. I remember that there is a point in LotR where Eowyn addresses Aragorn as "thee". This is a more intimate form of address and it shifts the mood dramatically.

Eowyn uses thou also with Theoden, where her usage has a very ritualistic tone.

Originally Posted by The King of the Golden Hall

The king now rose, and at once Eowyn came forward bearing wine. Ferthu Theoden hal! she said. 'Receive now this cup and drink in happy hour. Health be with thee at they going and coming!'

If I recall correctly, it was the Quakers who took up 'thee' and 'thou' as a public insistence upon the equality of all people. Yet their usage came to be seen as archaic and religious. Interesting.

(Of course, now we know where the modern phrase "happy hour" comes from. All praise to Tolkien!)

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Originally Posted by davem

Is there a difference in the German translation of Mister Frodo & Master Frodo, or is the same word used for both?

And for those in search of some light relief http://www.kombu.de/twain-3.htm

Davem, I'm not familiar enough with the German translations to answer that question. Maybe Guinevere or Macalaure or others who have read the German version can give more information. As I read the original first, I could never bear to read more than a page or two of the translations!

Thanks for that wonderful Twain link - I'm familiar with his essay on the "awful German language" and have chuckled over it many times, but a number of these quotes are from other works and new to me. One in particular is quite appropriate for the Downs:

...it ought to be gently and reverently set aside among the dead languages, for only the dead have time to learn it.

Lalaith, normally "ihr" is an informal plural pronoun; in the old-fashioned usage, it can substitute for "Sie", which is the formal pronoun and can be either plural or singular. Good reference to the (obsolete) usage of "thee" by Éowyn/Tolkien! Nowadays, the fact that it is used only in a religious context clouds its original intimate meaning.

[Lalaith]

Yes, that's how I remember Ihr, as the plural of du, the other use I think we were taught about briefly, but I couldn't remember. When, exactly, would you substitute it for Sie?
Old Yorkshire people do still use thee and thy, in the old-style intimacy way. When I was a student, m neighbour, a pensioner, used to lean over the fence and say, "I do worry about thee, pet, so far away from thy parents.