'Bottom, thou art translated.'

[davem]

Originally Posted by obloquy

That's because the poetry of Shakespeare is not what's going to interest kids. The idea is that the things that happen in the plays are exciting, but kids rarely realize that because the language is virtually impenetrable to the novice. If an interest can be created, Shakespeare can be taught; if not, he's not the kind of author you can force down a kid's throat just by making his work required reading.

If you're only going to teach kids what interests them they're going to learn nothing. If the language is 'impenetrable' to them (& we're not talking about 5 year olds here, but older children & teens) its because the kind of literature they're exposed to is so dire. Shakespeare is modern English. Mind you, I've seen Milton & Bunyan dismissed as 'impenetrable' too.

And the whole point I'm making, btw, is not that young children should be thrown in at the deep end & given no help in understanding Shakespeare. If you look at the links to the animated Shakespeare I gave earlier, you'll see some very clever ways 'in'. The problem with these versions is not that they give children a way 'in', but that they focus purely on plot & not on poetry. This is like trying to teach about Wordsworth by producing comic books full of pictures of clouds & daffodils.

Which is bad in your opinion, but things have to be left out of curriculum and your assessment of Shakespeare as necessary for the average teenager may not be all that well-considered. Shakespeare is not fundamental to education. He is a luxury, and an introduction to his plays via a medium that kids are familiar with is better than nothing.

And what is 'necessary' then? Stuff that has 'practical' uses, which will enable them to pass exams & get jobs? If you can't use it to get on then its optional?

Those lazy, incompetent teachers. They should have their pay cut. Tell me, do you think they're having difficulty teaching Shakespeare to children because they do not understand him themselves and have no idea how to teach his work? Or is it, perhaps, because most kids in school have almost zero interest in reading anything? Kids get out of school what they put into it.

I think its the former in some cases. And, sorry, but its the teachers' job to teach.

You're imagining a distinction where there isn't one. I'd like to see the data you're referencing. Did you have to extract samples of Dylan and Keats themselves, or were you able to run the tests using pieces of their published materials? I'm really eager to see how the inherent value of these artists' work can be quantified and compared. Because unless you can do that, you're talking about opinion and taste, regardless of how many other opinions validate yours.

So, anything goes. There are no objective standards by which we judge quality. A trashy soap opera is equivalent to Hamlet if you think it is? Nothing is objectively better than anything else? Is the 'quick' comic book version of Henry V as good as the original? If so, why bother with the original at all? Why bother moving on to the original - why not just stick with the quick version then?

And yet, we seem to be going round in circles here. We'll probably have to agree to disagree.

Or to get back to Tolkien - is 'boss' a good translation of 'master'? Or would 'Meister' be better?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Originally Posted by davem

Or to get back to Tolkien

Great idea!

- is 'boss' a good translation of 'master'? Or would 'Meister' be better?

Neither - in the first German translation, it is "Herr Frodo". "Herr" can be used in several ways; the most common is as a generic term for male persons, comparable to the English "Mister". It can also mean "lord" or "master". At any rate, it is a formal way of addressing a superior, something that might seem stranger to modern Americans than to traditional Brits and Europeans, who still differentiate between friends and acquaintances and who are still aware of class differences.

Dear me, I can vividly remember the days when one did not dream of addressing an older person by her/his first name unless specifically invited to do so! And this tradition still holds here in Germany, at least partially, especially so in a formal setting such as business and education.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

Dear me, I can vividly remember the days when one did not dream of addressing an older person by her/his first name unless specifically invited to do so! And this tradition still holds here in Germany, at least partially, especially so in a formal setting such as business and education.

Oh, yes. I can remember, around 1970 or so, Major Naumann, with whom my father had shared an office for nearly a year, holding a little schnapps ceremony wherein their relationship formally changed from 'Sie' to 'du' and 'Major/Commander' to 'Hans/Bill.'

[Lalaith]

So how does the du/sie tu/vous te/usted (is that right - so long since I did Spanish...) formats work in the German, French and Spanish translations of LotR? Can anyone tell me?
And how were these decisions made I wonder, given that the original English does not have these differentiations?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Ah, excellent question, Lalaith! That is indeed an important question for translators not only of books, but also of movie dialogues for dubbing. Just where does the relationship turn personal enough to allow a transition from the formal "Sie" to the intimate "du"? Basically, one can only attempt to locate a point of time in the plot where the change would take place if it were originally written in German. That also depends on the historical period in which the story takes place. The use of the second person personal pronoun has changed in history.

The medieval feeling of LotR means that there is a form that was once used and is now considered old-fashioned, if not obsolete - "Ihr". That is what Sam uses for "Herr Gandalf". I don't have the modern German translation, so I don't know off-hand what he uses there. But a modern usage would change the flavour of the story, taking it out of ancient times.

Tolkien did give us a hint about the Hobbits' usage - he once said/wrote (sorry, I don't have the exact quote or location at the moment) that the Hobbits only use the familiar pronoun. For that reason Pippin was considered royalty by the people of Gondor, because he addressed Denethor with the familiar pronoun! Only an equal would be allowed that privilege.

That is the reason that Sam calls Frodo "Herr Frodo" (Mr. Frodo) yet uses the familiar "du" - an unlikely combination!

[davem]

Is there a difference in the German translation of Mister Frodo & Master Frodo, or is the same word used for both?

And for those in search of some light relief http://www.kombu.de/twain-3.htm

[Lalaith]

Tolkien did give us a hint about the Hobbits' usage - he once said/wrote (sorry, I don't have the exact quote or location at the moment) that the Hobbits only use the familiar pronoun. For that reason Pippin was considered royalty by the people of Gondor, because he addressed Denethor with the familiar pronoun! Only an equal would be allowed that privilege.

Yes, I remember that too...presumably Merry would have been the same with Theoden.
Can you remind me of the difference between Ihr and Sie?

I was wrong actually that there was no use of du/sie in the English original. I remember that there is a point in LotR where Eowyn addresses Aragorn as "thee". This is a more intimate form of address and it shifts the mood dramatically.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Originally Posted by davem

Is there a difference in the German translation of Mister Frodo & Master Frodo, or is the same word used for both?

And for those in search of some light relief http://www.kombu.de/twain-3.htm

Davem, I'm not familiar enough with the German translations to answer that question. Maybe Guinevere or Macalaure or others who have read the German version can give more information. As I read the original first, I could never bear to read more than a page or two of the translations!

Thanks for that wonderful Twain link - I'm familiar with his essay on the "awful German language" and have chuckled over it many times, but a number of these quotes are from other works and new to me. One in particular is quite appropriate for the Downs:

...it ought to be gently and reverently set aside among the dead languages, for only the dead have time to learn it.

Lalaith, normally "ihr" is an informal plural pronoun; in the old-fashioned usage, it can substitute for "Sie", which is the formal pronoun and can be either plural or singular. Good reference to the (obsolete) usage of "thee" by Éowyn/Tolkien! Nowadays, the fact that it is used only in a religious context clouds its original intimate meaning.