The plants of middle earth

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Of course, letter # 312 raises all kinds of scientific questions--enough that I'm sure alatar could pose another thread as successful as the elven snow prints one! Would Tolkien's comment that those flowers contain a light--the same light that the Simarils trapped, the Light of the Two Trees?--suggest something about the botany of Arda? We know that two trees were elevated above others. Now he suggests that some flowers were, well, closer to the original music than others? Or does all of Middle-earth's plant life sustain this special light, which now for us is gone? What does it mean to extend the special effect of the Two Trees to Two Flowers?

It had always been a dream of mine to see the Two Trees, Telperion and Laurelin. That not being possible, I once years ago considered making my own (when you study molecular and cellular biology, you tend to think thus, having glimpsed a few bars of Eru's song book.). In the lab we used luciferase to determine the amount of ATP (read 'cell's energy') in some reaction. You'd mix the stuff in a tube, give a laugh like, "Heh heh heh," (scientists are required to do this to continue the stereotype that we're all mad) then watch the contents glow. Also, as a matter of practice, and I'm sure that school children are now doing the same, we would cut and splice pieces of DNA into these little loops then trick bacteria into sucking them in and mass-producing our DNA (note that this was BP - before Polymerase Chain Reaction).

It occurred to me that the same fun could be used to get other organisms to make luciferase (would that be considered doing the Devil's handiwork?), taking the gene from a firefly and using retroviruses to lock it into the host's DNA. The host then would churn out the bioluminescent substrate and all would be bliss - unless that killed the host. My idea was to get shrubbery to do this, then one could light one's walkway without a bulb in sight. Actually watched people add genes to individual mice cells in order to make transgenic mice, so newer methods are available, but...

My professor, long suffering, countered my enthusiasm as he knew that I hadn't considered the energy requirements. Even if it were possible to have a shrub glow, how much ATP would it take to keep the thing going - scientists can be such killjoys. Trees, like a maple, produce a sweet sap that can end up on flapjakes, and so my counter counter was that if these trees could go on living after being tapped to make my breakfast syrup, then surely they could glow if we left them their sap. Also, some plants actually ate bugs, such as the Venus Fly Trap, and so that could also be the added ATP source.

It was then decided that I should get back to work as neither of us dealt with plant cells, and there were human cell lines to be cultured, and my professor always started to worry when I was outlining my plan for designing large carnivorous glowing trees (formerly I had a similar plan to get them walking, but that too required too much energy).

Anyway, while I dreamed away of one day seeing a glowing tree, nature was working on its own version, which, demonstrating that hobbits do rule, ended up being, of all things, a mushroom.

Anyway, if someone wants to take the idea and run with it - have at it, just give me an acknowledgment and let me know how fast I need run.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

ATP- isn't that the stuff behind firefly lights?

[Lalwendë]

So what Alatar actually was trying to bio-engineer was a mad combo of Telperion-Ent-Old Man Willow?

Or, errr, a Triffid.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

ATP- isn't that the stuff behind firefly lights?

Think that that's the luciferase, which is powered by adenosine 5'-triphosphate - ATP ("ATP is the main energy source for the majority of cellular functions."). It's pretty ubiquitous. My friend used to joke that wouldn't it be cool to drink a glass of ATP; the closest we came was drinking Mountain Dew syrup (no water). Don't try that at home.

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

So what Alatar actually was trying to bio-engineer was a mad combo of Telperion-Ent-Old Man Willow?

Guess that the good thing in that combination is that light travels faster than sound, so you'd see'm coming before he caught you with his singing.

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Having recently had the sad misfortune to watch a 125 year old oak felled because of structural damage in a storm, I can say that roots are integral to a fully functioning tree. In fact, even once the trunk was sawn off, the stump persisted in pumping up/out sap/water for the now-nonexistent tree.

My thumb is black, not green, but I heard that many plants/trees store up a lot of 'food' in their roots for the winter, which dictates when you can safely prune a tree - not sure when that is.

Which raises an interesting point about ents. If roots are the 'heart' of a tree, pumping the essential life fluid through all the limbs, what fulfils that function in ents? Or are their feet hairy, like hobbit feet, but hairy with roots, which can immediately dig down into the earth once an ent stops walking? Or have ents developed a sort of secondary heart where their limbs meet at the trunk, which ensures the free flow of sap? I recall some dinosaurs actually had second brains to control the movement of their tail...

Again, my 'specialty' was human biology, and things smaller than a cell, but thought that trees 'pump' fluid by a process called transpiration, which sounds a lot like you think it might. Water kinda 'sweats out' the leaves, and this mini-vacuum draws water from the roots upward. Heard that this is a pretty important thing as if it weren't available, plants would be very flat.

Treebeard may or may not have a physical heart. He may use transpiration. My question, getting back to my mad days, is what exactly does he eat? Plants do not move because via photosynthesis they don't make a whole lot of 'food.' Another mad idea was to add chlorophyll to human skin cells so that when you're vacationing at the beach you could skip an over-priced meal or two. But that same professor made me figure out how much energy it took to walk, and how much is gathered from the sun via chlorophyll, and the answer is that you'd still need to eat - and having that green tinge to your skin, nobody would order the same dish.

Anyway, I can see Treebeard drinking most of his energy requirements (think that it would be 'heavy' even for a hobbit's taste), but can't see him setting down roots with every footfall as Ents walk just too fast.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by alatar

My professor, long suffering, countered my enthusiasm as he knew that I hadn't considered the energy requirements. Even if it were possible to have a shrub glow, how much ATP would it take to keep the thing going - scientists can be such killjoys. Trees, like a maple, produce a sweet sap that can end up on flapjakes, and so my counter counter was that if these trees could go on living after being tapped to make my breakfast syrup, then surely they could glow if we left them their sap. . . . and my professor always started to worry when I was outlining my plan for designing large carnivorous glowing trees (formerly I had a similar plan to get them walking, but that too required too much energy).

Anyway, while I dreamed away of one day seeing a glowing tree, nature was working on its own version, which, demonstrating that hobbits do rule, ended up being, of all things, a mushroom.

Having recently had the sad misfortune to watch a 125 year old oak felled because of structural damage in a storm, I can say that roots are integral to a fully functioning tree. In fact, even once the trunk was sawn off, the stump persisted in pumping up/out sap/water for the now-nonexistent tree.

Which raises an interesting point about ents. If roots are the 'heart' of a tree, pumping the essential life fluid through all the limbs, what fulfils that function in ents? Or are their feet hairy, like hobbit feet, but hairy with roots, which can immediately dig down into the earth once an ent stops walking? Or have ents developed a sort of secondary heart where their limbs meet at the trunk, which ensures the free flow of sap? I recall some dinosaurs actually had second brains to control the movement of their tail...

[William Cloud Hicklin]

This is the sort of fantasy conception that doesn't really bear strict scrutiny- like flying, talking, firebreathing dragons- but I'm not sure Tolkien really envisioned Ents as animated trees, i.e. made of wood. Rereading the initial description of Treebeard one gets the impression of a flesh-and-blood troll-like creature that *looks* tree-ish, like a walking-stick insect on a much larger scale.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by alatar

Another mad idea was to add chlorophyll to human skin cells so that when you're vacationing at the beach you could skip an over-priced meal or two. But that same professor made me figure out how much energy it took to walk, and how much is gathered from the sun via chlorophyll, and the answer is that you'd still need to eat - and having that green tinge to your skin, nobody would order the same dish. . . . Treebeard may or may not have a physical heart. He may use transpiration.

Originally Posted by Lal

Or, errr, a Triffid

Sounds more like Shrek or Gumby to me now with this latest bit of info. Where's Esty? She might be interested.

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

This is the sort of fantasy conception that doesn't really bear strict scrutiny- like flying, talking, firebreathing dragons- but I'm not sure Tolkien really envisioned Ents as animated trees, i.e. made of wood. Rereading the initial description of Treebeard one gets the impression of a flesh-and-blood troll-like creature that *looks* tree-ish, like a walking-stick insect on a much larger scale.

Originally Posted by Tolkien, chapter Treebeard

They found that they were looking at a most extraordinary face. It belonged to a large Man-like, almost Troll-like, figure, at least fourteen foot high.

I think this gets us perilously close to the 'like shadows of wings' debate for those other creatures of fantasy conception who for our own good shall not be named here.

It's a good point to make, that the Ents are not precisely trees, but the exact nature of the relationship between Ents and trees is, like many things in Middle-earth, made deliberately obscure, or, in the words of Tolkien about that other fellow who seemed a shepherd over Old Man Willow, an enigma.

some random passages:

Originally Posted by Treebeard chapter

Whether it [Treebeard] was clad in stuff like green and grey bark, or whether that was its hide, was difficult to say. . . .

Treebeard lifted up first one large foot and then the other, and moved them to the edge of the shelf. The rootlike [that word 'like' again!] toes grasped the rocks. . . .

The trees and the Ents . . I [Treebeard speaking] do not understand all that goes on myself, so I cannot explain it to you. Some of us are still true Ents, and lively enought in our fashion, but many are growing sleepy, going tree-ish, as you might say. Most of the tree are just trees, of course; but many are half awake. Some are quite wide awake, and a few are, well, ah, well getting Entish. That is going on all the time. . . .

Some of my kin look just like trees now, and need something great to rouse them; and they speak only in whispers. But some of my trees are limb-lithe, and many can talk to me. . . .[

When that happens to a tree, you find that some have bad hearts. . . .

A bit evolutionary, eh? Frankly, I think ents are Tolkien's revenge upon Shakespeare with his dissatisfaction with Burnham Wood and so to be wondered at but not pondered down to their taproots. . . . but we could wonder which trees might make the best potential Ents.