Is THIS how you imagined the vampires?

[Lindale]

Funny. SInce Tolkien was vague about those vampires of his, I always pictured them as almost Bram Stoker-ish, you know, a big bat, but then again able to transform into some hideous woman (for those familiar with Philippine lit, it's the mananaggal minus the separated upper body and lower body). Very relative thoughts... I thought of the hideous-woman thingy because Luthien transformed into a bat, right? Thuringwethil or however it is spelled, haven't reread Sil recently...

[sallkid]

I believe she transformed into a vampire, not a bat.

For my part i pictured them as being another perversion of morgoth, something fell and dark, but not this thing which looks more demonic than vampiric. and definately no more than a foot higher than an average elf.

[Finduilas]

Since Tolkien didn't describe Vampires, but used a well known mithological creature, he was probably meaning it to be the usual picture, half bat half human.

[Morthoron]

Thuringwethil could take the form of a large bat, a vampire bat. This does not mean she was some type of Nosferatu. There should be no connotations of Bela Lugosi-like creatures in Middle-earth. Also, Luthien did not transform into the likeness of Thuringwethil, she merely put on the 'bat-fell' of Thurngwethil after she was killed, just as Beren wore the 'wolf-hame' of Draugluin. Tolkien refers to vampire bats at the Battle of Five Armies as well, and they are indeed bats.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Also, Luthien did not transform into the likeness of Thurngwethil, she merely put on the 'bat-fell' of Thurngwethil after she was killed,

But somehow nonetheless acquired the power of flight thereby.

[Bêthberry]

What I find fascinating is that Tolkien gave to Luthien this identity. Did he read Bram Stoker's Dracula? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dracula_%28novel%29 Did he know of the relationship between Lucy and the vampire and all the subversive sexuality of the Victorian genre?

What went through his mind as he gave these characters of the vampire and the werewolf to Luthien and Beren? And then had Luthien and Beren chistled onto the gravestones of himself and Edith?

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

What I find fascinating is that Tolkien gave to Luthien this identity. Did he read Bram Stoker's Dracula? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dracula_%28novel%29 Did he know of the relationship between Lucy and the vampire and all the subversive sexuality of the Victorian genre?

What went through his mind as he gave these characters of the vampire and the werewolf to Luthien and Beren? And then had Luthien and Beren chistled onto the gravestones of himself and Edith?

He almost certainly knew the Bram Stoker story and will likely have read it. He took a holiday in Whitby as a young man and already by that time (in fact as soon as the novel came out - it sold pretty well) Whitby was trading on the Dracula story. His drawing of Whitby Harbour was made directly outside the old lending library where Stoker did much of his research and writing - at that time it was still a library I believe - now it is The Magpie, mecca for lovers of Fish and Chips and the spot Tolkien stood on is the Fish Market. Since Stoker's story came out, Whitby and Dracula have gone hand-in-hand.

Plus there are Tolkien's tastes, which as they included H Rider Haggard I don't doubt would include something of a similar bent as Dracula was very much part of that genre of Boys' Own adventures. As such, I don't think the undercurrents of sex and disease were as apparent to early readers as they are today, if at all! Even if it would be exciting to think Tolkien had drawn something of this dark side into his work

Now as to the form of Vampires in Tolkien's work, I think that the 'bat form' which Luthien takes is just that, i.e. a large flying bat. I don't think of demonic figures, just of a 'corrupted natural form' rather like Shelob is at heart, in the form of just a giant spider. That's good as that's also the classic notion of a vampire when he/she is flitting about.

The interesting part is what the vampire looks like when not in 'bat form'. Did Thuringwethil merely have 'folded wings' when at rest? Did she look more like a woman? Would she have been able to hide her vampire nature?

One of the scary things about vampires in popular culture of course is how they can blend in with other people - did Tolkien take that kind of template? Maybe, maybe not. What really is interesting is that he did not describe his Vampire - and really, the notion of a Vampire is one of deep-seated, dark, psychological terror. Fear of the darkness in us and in other human beings. Fear of the predator. Fear of the unknown side of human nature. I think Tolkien was playing off that in not deliberately describing his Vampire, just as he was shady and shadowy in describing, or not describing so many of his other nightmare creations. It's up to you to imagine them, if you dare...

[THE Ka]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

... not transform into the likeness of Thurngwethil, she merely put on the 'bat-fell' of Thurngwethil after she was killed, just as Beren wore the 'wolf-hame' of Draugluin. Tolkien refers to vampire bats at the Battle of Five Armies as well, and they are indeed bats.

I once did an illustration of this event (sadly, it no longer is with us, my brother by *accident* threw it into the fire along with some junk mail long ago), and since Tolkien was rather vague about how actually Luthien might have looked, I highly doubt it is what the designers at GamesWorkshop thought of.
Though, I agree with you on how to consider the matter. Really, I can't see Luthien turning into a two-story vampire of sinewy porportions. When I drew it, I tried to get across the concept that it was a *cough* disguise, to give the sense of how Luthien wanted to appear to her surroundings and other creatures. There seems to be more of a sense towards secrecy and being unpretentious around other beings at Angband than, 'bwah! I be big vampiric monster...'.

~ Ka

[Knight of Gondor]

I do not recall Tolkien mentioning vampires??

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Knight of Gondor

I do not recall Tolkien mentioning vampires??

Yes, actually, in the Silmarillion in the Tale of Beren and Luthien (a single reference to a possibly Maiaric entity, Thuringwethil, and then another reference to Sauron turning into a bat), and then again in the Hobbit during the Battle of Five Armies. I can't recall any references to vampiric creatures in LotR, but it is Sunday morning and I am far too lazy to do the research.