Is THIS how you imagined the vampires?

[sallkid]

"...in The First Age Of Sun in the Wars of Beleriand it is told how, in this winged form made large and armed with talons and steel, Vampire spirits came into the service of Melkor, the dark enemy.

In the Quest of the Silmaril Thuringwethil the "woman of secret shadow", was a mighty Vampire and was the chief messenger to travel between Angband and Tol - in - Gauroth" - Characters from Tolkien - David Day

The idea of the "winged form" suggests they are bat like. But Thuringwethil is definately described as a woman, suggesting a human or humanoid form...

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by sallkid

"...in The First Age Of Sun in the Wars of Beleriand it is told how, in this winged form made large and armed with talons and steel, Vampire spirits came into the service of Melkor, the dark enemy.

In the Quest of the Silmaril Thuringwethil the "woman of secret shadow", was a mighty Vampire and was the chief messenger to travel between Angband and Tol - in - Gauroth" - Characters from Tolkien - David Day

Hmmm...David Day. I'd like to see the actual Tolkien quote that states "Vampire spirits came into the service of Melkor"; likewise, I'd like to read a direct Tolkien quote that states specifically "Thuringwethil....was a mighty Vampire". This is the general problem with David Day and his overactive imagination: one never knows where David Day begins and Tolkien has left off.

[sallkid]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Hmmm...David Day. I'd like to see the actual Tolkien quote that states "Vampire spirits came into the service of Melkor"; likewise, I'd like to read a direct Tolkien quote that states specifically "Thuringwethil....was a mighty Vampire". This is the general problem with David Day and his overactive imagination: one never knows where David Day begins and Tolkien has left off.

Quite so, but seeing as Luthien wore the skin of Thuringwethil to take the form of a vampire i'd say it's accurate.

[Lalwendë]

I remembered I'd started a thread on this topic some 10 months or so ago and here it is: http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthr...=thuringwethil

Now there I quoted all it said in the Sil which was:

He turned aside therefore at Sauron's isle, as they ran northward again, and he took thence the ghastly wolf-hame of Draugluin, and the bat-fell of Thuringwethil. She was the messenger of Sauron, and was wont to fly in vampire's form to Angband; and her great fingered wings were barbed at each joint's end with an iron claw. Clad in these dreadful garments Huan and Luthien ran through Taur-nu-Fuin, and all things fled before them.
Beren seeing their approach was dismayed; and he wondered, for he had heard the voice of Tinuviel, and he thought it now a phantom for his ensnaring.

and

By the counsel of Huan and the arts of Luthien he was arrayed now in the name of Draugluin, and she in the winged fell of Thuringwethil. Beren became in all things like a werewolf to look upon, save that in his eyes there shone a spirit grim indeed but clean; and horror was in his glance as he saw upon his flank a bat-like creature clinging with creased wings. Then howling under the moon he leaped down the hill, and the bat wheeled and flittered above him.

I still stand by what I said in that thread, that there is no reason why Tolkien's vampires should not take on the familiar vampire form (and especially so given that I found out a little more when in Whitby as mentioned above). Now what does interest me anew is that this thing which Luthien puts on is called a 'fell' and a 'fell' is a skin - a 'fellmonger' was someone who prepared skins for the tanner.

So did Thuringwethil put this 'fell' on when in Vampire form or was she killed and skinned? The text suggests the former as she was 'in vampires form', though if it was the latter, who skinned her? Eyuw. Hardly bears thinking about (though I will, later, and have nightmares no doubt...) - was it Huan who killed and skinned her if this was the case? Was she a Maia? And how would you skin a Maia anyway? Tolkien does call them 'dreadful garments' after all...which brings to mind that scene in Rob Roy where Liam Neeson hides inside a rotting cow or Silence of the Lambs

Had a look in the Lay of Leithian but it doesn't really give us any more info than what we have.

It's also interesting how Tolkien stuck to the resolutely Real World terminology of Vampire. I mean, could you better describe a Vampire in any word other than what they always called?

And it also brings me to the other current thread about Beorn...another 'skin changer'...was he really donning some grisly Bear skin?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by sallkid

Quite so, but seeing as Luthien wore the skin of Thuringwethil to take the form of a vampire i'd say it's accurate.

Not exactly, she donned the bat-fell of Thuringwethil --

fell (fĕl)
n.
1. The hide of an animal; a pelt.
2. A thin membrane directly beneath the hide.

She appeared as a vampire bat (albeit a large one), not a vampire...an important distinction, as Tolkien also referred to 'vampire bats' in The Hobbit. I cannot find any reference to Day's assertion that "Vampire spirits came into the service of Melkor". Thuringwethil could assume the shape of a vampire bat, which does not necessarily mean she was indeed a vampire. We can't expect Morgoth's minions to fly about like overgrown canaries or laden swallows, it would be unseemly, and certainly not the 'look' the Dark Lord was seeking.

And Lalwende, interestingly enough, the word 'hame' in Draugluin's wolf 'hame' does not correspond directly to 'skin' or 'pelt'; in nearly every dictionary I've looked at, a hame is as follows:

hame(hm)
n.
One of the two curved wooden or metal pieces of a harness that fits around the neck of a draft animal and to which the traces are attached.

Only when one goes further back to a corresponding word in Old Norse hamr, base *hem-, 'to cover', do we get anything even remotely close to 'skin'. However, I found an obscure website referring to Odinic Rites, here....

http://odinic-rite.org/Hama.htm

that makes reference to the following: "From the word 'Hama,' old Norse also derives the word 'Hamr,' which means 'spirit skin'- a skin that maintains the soul's energies and stops them from being dispersed when travelling from the body."

Also, "Háma may be derived from the Old English word hám meaning "village, hamlet" or it may come from the word hama meaning 'covering, garment'."

Interesting stuff.

[Bêthberry]

Morthoron, that's a fascinating phrase, spirit skin. It of course provides yet another example of the philological underpinings of Tolkien's work.

All this discussion of skin and hides reminds me that Whitby has another claim to fame: in the late 16th C one Thomas Chaloner defeated the Vatican international monopoly on alum, an element used in the curing leather, when he recognised the Vatican stone as the same as the stone on his estate in Yorkshire. His alum industry apparently sustantially undercut the costs demanded by the Vatican. Now there's a Yorkshireman for you!

Lal, your comments about Whitby's importance to Tolkien and Bram Stoker are fascinating. Do you have an online link to Tolkien's drawing of Whitby Harbour? Can it be found in J R R Tolkien: Artist and Illustrator? Perhaps someone who owns that tome could scan the picture and reproduce it here?

However, for all that fascinating history about Stoker and Whitby, Whitby is important for another subject very close to Tolkien's heart: Whitby Abby under St. Hilde was a renown centre for Anglo Saxon learning. In fact, it was a double monastery, for both men and women, and St. Hilde is held instrumental in the Cædmon story of his inspiration and famous hymn, said by some to be the first English poem. So although Tolkien may have picked up on the local lore about vampires, his main interest in the town could have been its Anglo Saxon heritage rather than research into vampires.

Still, it is intriguing to think of something in common between vampires and the elves: both are nearly immortal creatures for whom longevity breeds great ennui.

[Lalwendë]

Now as it happens I have a link to that pic here as I tried to get close to where Tolkien stood, but the modern fish market stands in the way: http://lalwendeboggart.livejournal.com/104238.html*

It is also in Artist & Illustrator, together with a sketch he did of the Abbey - a view which is identical today, despite the Abbey being shelled in WWI. Now Tolkien did take a lot of holidays on the Yorkshire coast so I wonder how fond he was of it (I know he was not all that fond of Filey, but Whitby is about 1,000% nicer!) in its own right? Did the Caedmon story stir him up? Together with Captain Cook and Dracula, Caedmon is another figure you hear a lot about in the town - there is a fab cross dedicated to scenes of his life right at the top of the 199 steps.

There is of course the Middle-earth Tavern which has a display of Tolkien posters and whatnot - but I do not know and can't find out if it was named for Tolkien or Caedmon! They do a nice chilled pint of Theakston's Old Peculier and it's almost opposite another odd ancient thing in Whitby, the Penny Hedge, planted in the harbour each Whitsun!

The place fair sucks you in with it's embarrassingly dense levels of history (and beer and fish and handmade chocolates etc ) - I can't see how Tolkien could have failed to be inspired by the tales - Stoker himself took the Demeter from a real shipwreck and the black dog from the local legend of the scary Barguest.



*Wot's happened to the texty/weblink doo-dah? I liked that!

[davem]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

We can't expect Morgoth's minions to fly about like overgrown canaries or laden swallows, it would be unseemly, and certainly not the 'look' the Dark Lord was seeking..

Of course, we do find

"Thus Sauron yielded himself, and Lúthien took the mastery of the isle and all that was there; and Huan released him. And immediately he took the form of a vampire, great as a dark cloud across the moon, and he fled, dripping blood from his throat upon the trees, and came to Taur-nu-Fuin, and dwelt there, filling it with horror."

Which seems to imply Sauron flying ('a cloud across the moon' 'dripping blood from his throat upon the trees').

Or am I misunderstanding your point?

[Raynor]

There is an interesting bit in BoLT II:

Originally Posted by The fall of Gondolin

Then arose Thorndor, King of Eagles, and he loved not Melko, for Melko had caught many of his kindred and chained them against sharp rocks to squeeze from them the magic words whereby he might learn to fly (for he dreamed of contending even against Manwe in the air); and when they would not tell he cut off their wings and sought to fashion therefrom a mighty pair for his use, but it availed not.

It is interesting that Melkor is here depicted as not being able to fly (nor do we see in other versions any mentioning to the contrary); if this were true, it would imply that neither could Sauron, who, if anything, is a lesser being than he.

Also, if Sauron was able to fly, I believe it is likely he would have done this other times too, but there is no record of it.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Raynor

It is interesting that Melkor is here depicted as not being able to fly (nor do we see in other versions any mentioning to the contrary); if this were true, it would imply that neither could Sauron, who, if anything, is a lesser being than he.

I take it this would mean that Ancalagon & Smaug couldn't fly either, as they were lesser beings than Morgoth?

A vampire shape with pinions vast
Screeching leaped from the ground & passed
Its dark blood dripping on the trees (Lay of Leithian)

Or perhaps Sauron just screamed, jumped into the air & then ran off through the forest flapping his wings....

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by davem

Of course, we do find....

....Which seems to imply Sauron flying ('a cloud across the moon' 'dripping blood from his throat upon the trees').

Or am I misunderstanding your point?

I mean, by definition, when Tolkien uses the term 'vampire', he is referring to a bat or bat-like entity, not vampire in the sense of the walking dead Nosferatu variety vampire.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

I mean, by definition, when Tolkien uses the term 'vampire', he is referring to a bat or bat-like entity, not vampire in the sense of the walking dead Nosferatu variety vampire.

I would agree with you that Tolkien employs the cultural dislike of bats as another form of creature which inspires unease and dread in humans (elves and dwarves too?), similar to the creepy, crawly spiders.

Tolkien seems to have split up what you call the walking dead Nosferatu variety vampire. We have, for instance, the Dead who are cursed by Isildur and who walk the Paths of the Dead until Aragorn releases them from their oath (and Isildur's curse). Granted they are not the blood-sucking variety, but they are a form of dead who walk the earth in unhappy thralldom.

Then we have the similarity I noted above of the ennui of longevity. The aesthete is part of the vampire tradition (well, some of the tradition; it is so various) and elves certainly have aesthetic sensibilities, although perhaps without the sense of uncontrolled appetite. If we take Tolkien's comment that LotR is about death, I find it intriguing that he would consider the effects of longevity and create a race such as the elves rather than Stoker's version. Was Tolkien writing against type?

[davem]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

I mean, by definition, when Tolkien uses the term 'vampire', he is referring to a bat or bat-like entity, not vampire in the sense of the walking dead Nosferatu variety vampire.

Sorry. When you said

We can't expect Morgoth's minions to fly about like overgrown canaries or laden swallows, it would be unseemly, and certainly not the 'look' the Dark Lord was seeking.

I thought you meant We can't expect Morgoth's minions to fly about. Obviously We can't expect Morgoth's minions to fly about is your way of saying "We can't expect Morgoth's minions to include "the walking dead Nosferatu variety vampire",

As I've shown, some of Morgoth's minions (like Sauron) did fly about (Sauron having the ability to assume human, wolf & bat form - Dracula or what?). I don't think its stated whether Thuringwethil was 'undead' or not, so one can only speculate.





I can only put this down to the old 'two nations divided by a single language' thing.

[Mattius]

It reminds me of Gremlins 2 when one of the Gremlins drinks the formula to make him into a vampire/gargoyle creature. I've been looking for a picture but I think it is too obscure a reference!