Who were the Nazgul?

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Mansun

Sauron may have thought of the Balrog as the equivalent of Shelob in Cirith Ungol, as a guardian of a domain that belonged to Mordor but nevertheless a co-existance was inadvertantly made, since it prevented the enemy from seizing it.

The difference that I can see is that Shelob is the offspring of Ungoliant, who initially was allied with Melkor, but then went her own way. So Shelob seems to have a similar status. The Balrog were lieutenants of Melkor in the a same sense that Sauron was, even if their role was more exclusively for battle. OK, Melkor is gone, but I don't see any reason why the Balrog would be rivals or enemies. But by the same token, I can't see the Balrogs serving Sauron directly, given their more or less equivalent status and their different roles...

[goldfinger]

This Balrog thing has nothing to do with this thread, so get back to the subject Who Were the Nazgul?!

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by goldfinger

This Balrog thing has nothing to do with this thread, so get back to the subject Who Were the Nazgul?!

Classic thread drift!!

On the Nazgul, I have never quite understood how "Black Easterlings" could come to be called Numenorean, or vice versa. I guess it depends on the origin of ALL the people given the right to populate Numenor.

Or, was this a case of the Numenoreans taking over Umbar such that the Corsairs, or nearby peoples, became identified as being "Numenorean". The latter seems more likely to me.

The other question is when exactly 9 Nazgul were identified. One logical source of the Nazgul would be from the kingdom of Rhudaur, which was corrupted relatively early on in the 3rd Age. Unless there is some evidence that all 9 Nazgul were active before this time (i.e., before 1400 or so)...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Not sure if I understood your post correctly, but if I did, then:

Originally Posted by CSteefel

On the Nazgul, I have never quite understood how "Black Easterlings" could come to be called Numenorean, or vice versa. I guess it depends on the origin of ALL the people given the right to populate Numenor.

It is explicitely said that only three of the Nazgul were "Númenorean lords". The others were "great kings of Men", which does not exclude the possibility that the other six Nazgul came from other nations of Middle-Earth. And what more, I think it would seem logical that Sauron recruited many of his servants from the Men who lived in Rhun or Harad or other lands which were under his dominion.

Originally Posted by CSteefel

The other question is when exactly 9 Nazgul were identified. One logical source of the Nazgul would be from the kingdom of Rhudaur, which was corrupted relatively early on in the 3rd Age. Unless there is some evidence that all 9 Nazgul were active before this time (i.e., before 1400 or so)...

Okay, I will recapitulate it everything only to make it clear. First activity of Nazgul at all was spotted around 2250 Second Age (they were already Ringwraith at that time). Most of Middle-Earth was under Sauron's dominion. The Númenoreans still lived on Númenor, but they also took part in what was happening in Middle-Earth. Thus, it is very probable that they also learned of the Nine. With the Fall, at the end of Second Age, the Faithful came to Middle-Earth and founded the realms of Arnor and Gondor. The knowledge of the Nazgul was then passed by the residents of Arnor and Gondor, and the wise Elves... but largely it was supposed that the Nine have vanished with Sauron. Rhudaur was only part was corrupted in the 2nd millenium of the Third Age, after the Witch-King rose in Angmar. But apart from the Wise, I think no one knew who the Witch-King really is. There have been also suspicions who was the resident of Dol Guldur (Sauron) and some thought it might be one of the Nine. But until Sauron rose again in Mordor and the Nine started their hunt for the Ring, I think no one knew exactly whether they were or were not in Middle-Earth (or if they were all or just some of them), or in Sauron's service anymore. Perhaps Saruman knew, since he studied the knowledge of the Enemy for a long time... but others surely not:

Originally Posted by FotR Chapter 2 - Shadow of the Past

Nine he gave to Mortal Men, proud and great, and so ensnared them. Long ago they fell under the dominion of the One, and they became Ringwraiths, shadows under his great
Shadow, his most terrible servants. Long ago. It is many a year since the Nine walked abroad. Yet who knows? As the Shadow grows once more, they too may walk again.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Okay, I will recapitulate it everything only to make it clear. First activity of Nazgul at all was spotted around 2250 Second Age (they were already Ringwraith at that time).

What is the source for this--the Appendix in Return of the King, or is this mentioned also elsewhere??

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by CSteefel

What is the source for this--the Appendix in Return of the King, or is this mentioned also elsewhere??

It's the Appendix B - the Tale of Years, entry for the year 2251 SA

About this time the Nazgul or Ringwraiths, slaves of the Nine Rings, first appear.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by CSteefel

Classic logical source of the Nazgul would be from the kingdom of Rhudaur, which was corrupted relatively early on in the 3rd Age.

No, that can't work. The Nazgul had to have been corrupted while Sauron could still control their Rings- i.e. before he lost the One at the end of the Second Age.

[CSteefel]

Yes, that makes sense.

Originally Posted by goldfinger

This Balrog thing has nothing to do with this thread, so get back to the subject Who Were the Nazgul?!

This sounds like Gandalf when he tells off Pippin in the House of Elrond!

I believe there is some link between the Nazgul & their fear of fire in relation to Balrogs. Also, there is no harm with comparing the powers of the Nazgul with that of a Balrog, Melkor's greatest servants just behind Sauron.