The Dior Dilemma

[Lalaith]

Fascinating though the discussion about the lifespan of the Numenoreans might be, it doesn't help us with the sticky issue of Dior and his descendants.

The Elros thing was resolved by the Valar at the end of the First Age, 583. It has no relevance to the status of Dior in ca 500.

[Raynor]

It has no relevance to the status of Dior in ca 500.

Seeing that Luthien was mortal, for all intents and purposes, by the time she returns from Mandos, Dior should be a Man, being the son of two mortal parents.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

The Elros thing was resolved by the Valar at the end of the First Age, 583. It has no relevance to the status of Dior in ca 500.

Agreed. I think since it was only resolved later on it only applied to those who were living. I think also, imo, that the Princes of Dol Amroth were denied this choice as well. Not only because I believe the Valar were specific, it seems, to who the choice would be granted, but also because of the state of the Dúnedain. This state being their constant fear of death, even among the Faithful. Faramir informs the Hobbits how this was still the case in M-E. I'm thinking if this were so generally, then I could not see a Prince of the Dúnedain refusing the opportunity of being granted immortality if it was his to choose.

[AndyC]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

Agreed. I think since it was only resolved later on it only applied to those who were living. I think also, imo, that the Princes of Dol Amroth were denied this choice as well. Not only because I believe the Valar were specific, it seems, to who the choice would be granted, but also because of the state of the Dúnedain. This state being their constant fear of death, even among the Faithful. Faramir informs the Hobbits how this was still the case in M-E. I'm thinking if this were so generally, then I could not see a Prince of the Dúnedain refusing the opportunity of being granted immortality if it was his to choose.

This can be resolved (and I'm sorry for banging on about it ) by taking the viewpoint that mortal blood (in any quantity) = mortality.

It's supported by Mandos' words in The Lost Road, which is, however, a fairly old text. Against that, there's no later text; Tolkien never got that far down the track again.

So if we assume that all Half-Elves are mortal (albeit with phenotypes and vigour affected by Elven heritage) unless specifically awarded The Choice by Manwe, the issues go away.

It is noted in Unfinished Tales (the footnote to Elros' entry in the Tale of Kings, I believe, but I haven't got the books with me) that Elros "capacity for life" was identical to that of Elrond, until the weariness (given by the Gift of Men) grew to the point that he laid down his life (albeit that this was long deferred due to a direct gift of Eru to the Numenoreans in general and Elros' line in particular). I do wonder if this is a trait given to other Half-Elven - that of, I assume, not ageing and dying when laying down their life in weariness of the world (which would, one assumes, come quicker to Half-Elves not given special blessing by Eru of extended longevity) with their children and later descendants having "normal" but slower ageing.

That last paragraph crosses the line into sheer speculation, but it is consistent with and coherent with what we do know.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Andy has the right of it. The Choice did not exist until the problem of Earendil and Elwing arose, and it took a special ruling by Eru.* Before that time - i.e. during Dior's lifetime - the Mandos Rule was in effect: any descendant of a Man was a Man.

And, as mentioned above, Luthien had become human before Dior was born anyway. The same situation** would apply to Eldarion in the Fourth Age.

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*Even then it applied only to them and their descendants, not all half-elves.
**with a couple of technical differences

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Andy has the right of it. The Choice did not exist until the problem of Earendil and Elwing arose, and it took a special ruling by Eru.* Before that time - i.e. during Dior's lifetime - the Mandos Rule was in effect: any descendant of a Man was a Man.

And, as mentioned above, Luthien had become human before Dior was born anyway. The same situation** would apply to Eldarion in the Fourth Age.

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*Even then it applied only to them and their descendants, not all half-elves.
**with a couple of technical differences

I disagree with this. Prior to Earendil and Elwing there was no ruling at all and hence why the question was raised about whether Earendil was one of the Noldor or one of the Edain. It's at this point that a decision is made, which states everyone with human blood is then mortal UNLESS given special ruling.

So it seems no decision had yet been made for Dior and his sons or they would have used this as a precedent in the case of Earendil.

If Tuor was allowed to become immortal and live with the elves, then I think it is possible that Dior and his sons would be granted the same chance. Dior only ever lived with Elves, married an elf and was the king of Elves.

Just one extra point, but Luthien never became human, but became mortal.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

If Tuor was allowed to become immortal and live with the elves

IF. It's also highly likely that was just a sentimental legend.

Had he reached Valinor- including by drowning and transport to Mandos- and been permitted to join the Elves of of the Blessed Realm- his case would have been raised as precedent when his son arrived. But instead Mandos, on the latter occasion, flatly declares that no Man may tread the Undying Lands and live.

Dior didn't live long enough for us to point to any unusual longevity; born 470 died 506.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

IF. It's also highly likely that was just a sentimental legend.

Had he reached Valinor- including by drowning and transport to Mandos- and been permitted to join the Elves of of the Blessed Realm- his case would have been raised as precedent when his son arrived. But instead Mandos, on the latter occasion, flatly declares that no Man may tread the Undying Lands and live.

Dior didn't live long enough for us to point to any unusual longevity; born 470 died 506.

Tolkien strongly indicates that Tuor gaining immortality is not just some legend, but accurate.

"Immortality and Mortality being the special gifts of God to the Eruhini (in whose conception and creation the Valar had no part at all) it must be assumed that no alteration of their fundamental kind could be effected by the Valar even in one case: the cases of Lúthien (and Tuor) and the position of their descendants was a direct act of God."

I don't think Tuor arrived in Valinor before his son and even if he did I don't see why his case would be used as a precedent. Tuor like Luthien was allowed to change their natural fate, by a special act of Eru.

The issue with Earendil was deciding what his default fate should be. In the end it was decided that anyone with mortal blood would be mortal, unless given another doom.