The Dior Dilemma

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

The issue with Earendil was not merely that he was half-elven, but that he had set foot in the West. That was what precipitated the discussion (as well as a ban on his return to Middle-earth).* One thing that can be learned about Dior indirectly from the Earendil case is that E was a case of first impression- plainly the Valar had not considered the issue before, which means that there had been no issue raised when Dior died.

Mandos apparently got to make the call himself- his Halls, his rules. I'm pretty sure he ruled "mortal"-- especially since, as mentioned above, both Dior's parents were mortals at the time he was born. Tough luck for Nimloth I guess. (More problematical would be the postmortem fate of Elured and Elurin).

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*I'm not aware that there was any ban on returned or revived Elves recrossing the Great Sea, at least during the Second Age. Even if we take the case of Glorfindel as exceptional, we know that Elves of Eressea sailed at least as far as Numenor.

On such a great matter as the fate of one of the Children of Illuvatar Mandos is not able to make the call. In fact Manwe specifically says the decision is his alone.

We have no proof either way, but we can give arguments for both sides.

I don't personally see the Valar saying tough luck to Nimloth, about a matter which was not decided and could have been argued either way. If in the case of Tuor who was raised by Elves Illuvatar was prepared to change his fate then I don't see why Dior would not get the same grace. Even more so since he was descendant from a Maiar.

Further more Dior's marriage is never counted as marriage between an Elf and a mortal.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

On such a great matter as the fate of one of the Children of Illuvatar Mandos is not able to make the call.

.....

Further more Dior's marriage is never counted as marriage between an Elf and a mortal.

I don't think Mandos was necessarily deciding their fates here, rather than stating two facts in his interaction with Ulmo. Half-elves are mortals.

If one believes in the rumor in Dol Amroth, than Galador too was a half-Elf. The only difference between him and the others who were granted it, he was not given a choice to choose his Doom. Galador was mortal.

Dior was indeed referred to as an Elf in his title, but if one were to take The Laws and Customs of the Eldar as true than he certainly did not grow up like an Elf.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

I don't think Mandos was necessarily deciding their fates here, rather than stating two facts in his interaction with Ulmo. Half-elves are mortals.

If one believes in the rumor in Dol Amroth, than Galador too was a half-Elf. The only difference between him and the others who were granted it, he was not given a choice to choose his Doom. Galador was mortal.

Dior was indeed referred to as an Elf in his title, but if one were to take The Laws and Customs of the Eldar as true than he certainly did not grow up like an Elf.

No I agree that Mandos was not deciding their fates, but stating two facts. My argument was that this was such a grave matter that only Manwe had the right to make the decision. So there was little chance of Mandos making a ruling without first talking to Manwe.

Personally I don't believe in the rumours of the Dol Amroth, but even if we accept the rumours to be true, it's a different situation than Dior. Galdor was born amongst men and grew up with men. Dior on the other hand had lived nearly his entire life with Elves and even ruled Elves. He would later marry an elf and just as importantly Dior's life happened before there was an official ruling. Any intermarriage after the ruling would know what they were getting into.

Dior was only referred to as an Elf, back when Beren was one of the Gnomes, but once Beren was changed to a Man, Dior later refers to himself as the first of the Peredhil.

“Dior their son, it is said, spoke both tongues: his father’s, and his mother’s, the Sindarin of Doriath. For he said: “I am the first of the Peredhil (Half-elven); but I am also the heir of King Elwë, the Eluchil.””

Dior like Earendil and all the other Halfelven grew up at a rate similar to humans if we are to accept the ages given in Laws of Customs.

[Morthoron]

Dior being a three-dimensional character (Maia, Elf and Man) is probably where they got the term Diorama.

[Gothmog, LoB]

Unless we go with the assumption that Dior was indeed a full mortal because he was only conceived after Lúthien had made her very special choice which not only got her out of her immortal Elda/Maia-heritage but also restored Beren back to life - a very special trick indeed - then there is no reason that Dior could even inherit 'the Quendi destiny' from her.

Unless, of course, we would assume that the choices that were given to Lúthien (and later Eärendil, Elwing, and their sons) were not binding to their descendants. But we know that this is the case from the fate of the children of Elros Tar-Minyatur so there is no reason whatsoever to assume that Dior got any special treatment due to the status of him being the child of an Elda-Maia half-blood (who had already given up all that) and a mere Mortal.

However, we do not know Eru's plan for Dior and his wife, so he might have given Manwe/Mandos special instructions how to deal with Dior's spirit as soon it showed up at Mandos.

We have to keep in mind that Dior is the offspring of a very important union between Elves and Men, most likely the most important such union in the history of Arda. Their romance most certainly was a huge and crucial part of the entire plan of Eru how to allow Men to absorb part of the elven-nature into their own bloodline. That is important later on. And I see no reason to not believe that Lúthien becoming mortal and Tuor becoming immortal wasn't part of that, too. This is conceived as some sort of mirrored exchange.

Perhaps part of the Dior problem also arises from the fact that Beren wasn't supposed to a Man in the original conception of the story. In that version only Eärendil would have been a half-elf, acting as a representative of both Elves and Men in the West. Eärendil's son(s) were of no real significance in that version of the story, either.

We should also keep in mind that the Eru's plan never would have been to have the Fall of Gondolin or the Ruin of Doriath the way it occurred.

Symbolically, I think, there is a strong case to be made that Beren and Lúthien's eventual marriage marked the beginning of the end of Doriath. Thingol and Melian - just as Turgon later on - should have read the signs correctly and given up the worldly things they had grown so accustomed to.

Lúthien's apparent loss causes 'Thingol's winter' in Doriath, and despite the fact that he is restored to health and life by her touch later on things have changed dramatically. The wise move would have been to abandon Doriath eventually, and give in to the inevitable change of time (say, move to Mouth of Sirion, or to Balar, helping the Mariner to prepare for his great quest). In that sense I find it very important to actually stress the importance that poison entered into Doriath both with the (wish for the) Silmaril as well as with the later greed for the Nargothrond gold, and so on.

Dior as a mere Mortal actually claiming the kingship of Doriath after Thingol's death and Melian's departure (who, to a much lesser degree, would also have been caught up in the corruption of the world as well as the desire to let go of things - her husband and kingdom - which she was not yet willing to give up) could be a fine symbol for this decay.

He certainly is of the divine line of Melian the Maia and Elu Thingol but he is still a mortal Man. The idea that he could rule Doriath as its king unchallenged and in peace in those times is itself a very interesting paradox. I mean, we are talking about a court in which Túrin Turambar, the king's very own foster son, was mocked by one of the king's own trusted advisers because of his human heritage.

Dior would most likely have the support of the majority of the Sindar in Doriath, but most certainly not of all of them.

That said, Eru's original plan/wish for could actually have been to join Eärendil on his quest. Especially in combination with the fact that Turgon was actually supposed to abandon Gondolin once Tuor arrived there rather than continue his futile attempt to preserve his previous little isolationist paradise.

One wonders what would have happened had Turgon and the Gondolindrim actually heeded Ulmo's warning and abandoned the city? Would that have resulted in some union between Turgon/Tuor/Eärendil and Dior and his children? If you check the timeline it seems possible that they could have teamed up and averted both the Second and Third Kinslaying.

And then, perhaps, not only Eärendil and Elwing would have gone West in that boat, but Turgon, Idril, Dior, Nimloth, Elwing, Eärendil, and their children together? In such a scenario the Dior situation could have resolved in a better way.

But the real problem with the Peredhil thing is actually the ability/right of Elrond's children to choose. If their fate is somehow connected to Elrond's presence then why the hell is this only the case with Elrond's children? Shouldn't Elros' children not also have had the right to choose to 'abandon their father' and either live with their uncle Elrond in Lindon or with their grandparents Eärendil and Elwing in Aman?

Eru/the Valar certainly could have passed on the message that Arwen had the right to choose via Gandalf but that would then also have been a special grant from Eru himself, not something Arwen and her brothers could do simply by deciding to not stay with their father.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

A lot of it has to do with the fact that according to both Tolkien and Manwe, the Gift of Men is much the superior option; the ability to leave the Circles of the World is so precious that no-one, not even a Vala, can take it away. This is the basis of the Mandos Rule: if any Eruhin possesses through even the least bit of genetics the right to go live with Eru, we can't take that away.

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(Saeros: he wasn't a Sinda or a native of Doriath but a Nando, a refugee from Amon Ereb, with their traditional dislike of Men; Thingol, Mablung and it would appear most everyone else thought he was being a prat)

[Gothmog, LoB]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

A lot of it has to do with the fact that according to both Tolkien and Manwe, the Gift of Men is much the superior option; the ability to leave the Circles of the World is so precious that no-one, not even a Vala, can take it away. This is the basis of the Mandos Rule: if any Eruhin possesses through even the least bit of genetics the right to go live with Eru, we can't take that away.

I'm not sure the Valar can even change the fate of the Eruhíni in this department at all. They might theoretically be able to use brute force like Morgoth did with Húrin and Sauron later accomplished via the Nine Rings, but that isn't the same - not to mention that it would be wrong. Morgoth and Sauron use their powers to mess with Eru's plan in a way they are not supposed to.

I also very much doubt that Mandos/Eonwe or even Manwe himself were anything else but Eru's spokespersons on the matter of Beren-Lúthien or Eärendil-Elwing-Elrond-Elros. It is a fine tale that Mandos got moved by Lúthien's plea and at all - but even if that was the case it wouldn't have been up to Mandos (or Manwe) to send Beren back or allow Lúthien her choice. In that sense it is quite clear that Eru Ilúvatar could easily have granted any half-elven running around in Middle-earth to choose his fate if he was so inclined - which he wasn't. He reserved that privilege for his chosen bloodline, the people he destined to be crucial in the overthrowing of Morgoth during the First Age whose descendants would also found and rejuvenate the royal line of the Edain.

Whether Dior belonged to those or not remain unresolved. Since Eru did apparently never contact him directly Mandos may have received special instructions how to deal with him. Or not. We don't know. I guess there is a chance that he was given a choice but how he would have chosen is completely unclear. Was he emotionally closer to his wife or his mortal parents? His overall bearing suggests he was close to the Eldar but whether that's actually the case isn't clear - his ancestry and royal status might have forced him into accepting the kingship of Doriath.

And then there is the fact that he was not, in fact, a half-elf in the same sense as Eärendil, Elwing, or Elrond/Elros were. His parents already had been mortal by the time of his conception. On the other hand - Mandos/Manwe could already have revealed to Lúthien what the fate of their son would be and whether he had a choice. But if they did that it was never revealed. However, if Dior had been granted a choice and had made such a choice before his death then he would most likely have chosen the Eldar (because of his wife) and subsequently Elwing wouldn't have been born as a half-elf, or would she? She would have been born as an Elda, and there would have been no reason for her even to make a choice. In Eärendil's case it is clear - if Tuor got a choice then this would have been revealed to him/given to him afterwards. When he and Idril finally reached Aman (or only Tol Eressea?). Eärendil would still have been born as a half-elf.

(Saeros: he wasn't a Sinda or a native of Doriath but a Nando, a refugee from Amon Ereb, with their traditional dislike of Men; Thingol, Mablung and it would appear most everyone else thought he was being a prat)

That is of little significance. The man was a trusted adviser and courtier of King Thingol, and his bad behavior clearly reflects back on both Thingol and Melian and their judge of character. Something was rotten in the state of Doriath, or else such a person would never have risen to such prominence.

Not to mention that Thingol himself was, lets say, less than pleased when Beren was asking for Lúthien's hand in marriage. Given Beren such an impossible task was both wicked and cruel (because he wanted Beren to fail and die) as well as the first sign of his corruption because he actually coveted one of the Silmaril. And while it is great that Beren and Lúthien succeeded in their quest, their success was the first step in Doriath's downfall. Had Thingol just given Lúthien to Beren Doriath could, perhaps, have held out until the War of Wrath. Up to this point it had not yet been touched by the shadow nor committed any sins of its own that would draw them into the fate of the exiled Noldor.