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Old 05-31-2006, 11:05 PM   #1
mormegil
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It's an odd question that we've spoken about before. To what extent are the orcs responsible for their actions? Are they always taught to hate and kill elves, men and dwarves? If they grow up believing this to be correct and were never taught contrary and are more or less forces into this are they responsible? No I don't think they are wholly responsible. I don't have the exact quote but I remember that Melkor creating the orcs was one of the greatest, if not the greatest, crime he committed. I think most of the culpability rests in him.

For example a parent has a child and teaches him a concept that most would view as 'evil' but the child is never exposed to the truth and is never shown the error of his ways. Is he responsible for errant actions? I would say no! It doesn't seem just to say that a being is responsible for adhering to a principle it has never learned.
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Old 06-01-2006, 04:37 AM   #2
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Quote:
I don't have the exact quote but I remember that Melkor creating the orcs was one of the greatest, if not the greatest, crime he committed.
Why, it's right about you in Letter 153:
Quote:
They would be Morgoth's greatest Sins...
I agree, responsibility must be laid upon Morgoth, as the Letter continued:
Quote:
Because by accepting or tolerating their making - necessary to their actual existence - even Orcs would become part of the World, which is God’s and ultimatly good.
This makes it seem like for Orcs to even exist (or in order for them to be "created") Morgoth needed to spew all the evil and hatred into them.
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Old 06-01-2006, 02:16 PM   #3
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The orcs had only one purpose when they were created by Morgorth and this was to aid in his desctruction and plan of taking over the world in the First Age. Since the Orcs know only one way of life, I find it very hard to see them in any way redeemable.
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Old 06-01-2006, 03:53 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by ArathorofBarahir
The orcs had only one purpose when they were created by Morgorth and this was to aid in his desctruction and plan of taking over the world in the First Age. Since the Orcs know only one way of life, I find it very hard to see them in any way redeemable.
Are they acting of their own accord and to what level is their knowledge of the actions? If they do not know what they do is wrong can they truly be accountable? If at work you are not adhering to a certain policy, however you were never informed of the policy and in fact you were taught contrary to said policy, can you be truly culpable?
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Old 06-02-2006, 10:51 AM   #5
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Because by accepting or tolerating their making - necessary to their actual existence - even Orcs would become part of the World, which is God’s and ultimatly good.
This observation, is, essentially, I think, "canon", and would seem
to contradict the view by many
(including but not confined to ArathorofBarahir):
Quote:
The orcs had only one purpose when they were created by Morgorth and this was to aid in his desctruction and plan of taking over the world in the First Age. Since the Orcs know only one way of life, I find it very hard to see them in any way redeemable
If orc's are rational, Middle-earth creatures it would seem there
must be a possibility of redemption for any individual orc. As
individuals and a society a long period of "detox" would
presumably be necessary, but possible.
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Old 01-03-2007, 03:34 PM   #6
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Orcs take joy in causing death and destruction. They know what they are doing and therefore cannot be redeemed. Orcs are evil, plain and simple.
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Old 01-03-2007, 09:31 PM   #7
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Arathor, I'm afraid you are mixing the Orcs Tolkien created with the common stereotypical view of Orcs that is common in literature. See, Tolkien created Orcs that are much more complex and have the human feelings of individualism and free will. What you've said completely contradicts what we see Orcs are capable of doing in Tolkien's story.

First you disregarded Letter 153 where Tolkien directly says that even Orcs were not beyond redemption, also consider these...

1) The Orcs were certainly capable of rebelling against Morgoth and Sauron:
Quote:
“The Orcs were beasts of humanized shape (to mock Men and Elves) deliberately perverted / converted into a more close resemblance to Men. Their ‘talking’ was really reeling off ‘records’ set in them by Melkor. Even their rebellion critical words - he knew about them.”~Morgoth’s Ring; Myths Transformed
2) We see a glimpse of a more humane side of Orcs with the discussion between Shagrat and Gorbag:
Quote:
’They would,’ grunted Gorbag. ’We’ll see. But anyway, if it does go well, there should be a lot more room. What d’you say? - if we get a chance, you and me’ll slip off and set up somewhere on our own with a few trusty lads, somewhere where there’s good loot nice and handy, and no big bosses.’
’Ah!’ said Shagrat. ’Like old times.’~The Choices of Master Samwise
Even Orcs had a desire to settle down and get away from the 'big bosses.' Sure we see them as the spiteful, hateful, ant-like slaves of Sauron and Morgoth. Yet they were much more complex than that stereotypical label. They could not be part of the 'cogs' of the machine. They could rebel and they could feel a desire of individualism.
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