Are orcs actually evil?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Animalmother

I'm not sure what function the pointy ears of an orc might have served. In an orc v. orc fight, and in a cold climate, pointy ears would be a disadvantage. Perhaps they were useful for predation, as are wolves' ears. Perhaps too they were useful for controlling body temperature.

I am not aware there was ever a description of Orcs having pointy ears. Is this perhaps a conclusion based on Elves having pointed ears, and so a transference to Orcs? Since Tolkien later on decided that Orcs more likely came from Man than Elves, would not the shape be mannish rather than elvish? I'm at work, so any reference material is unavailable to me.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

I am not aware there was ever a description of Orcs having pointy ears. Is this perhaps a conclusion based on Elves having pointed ears, and so a transference to Orcs? Since Tolkien later on decided that Orcs more likely came from Man than Elves, would not the shape be mannish rather than elvish? I'm at work, so any reference material is unavailable to me.

Actually even more - I am not aware that there is even a conclusion that Elves had pointy ears. And if there is not a definite word on it (which I believe there isn't), then I would even believe (for myself) that they did not have them. If nothing else, in the "canonical" books, there is not a mention of the shape of the Elven ears, so no need to assume they were pointy. Anyway, that's not the point (indeed!).

Another thing... not disqualifying the view of M-E as Animalmother posed it, it's one of possible viewpoint, but personally I'd be highly doubtful to using Darwin's theories to explain biological processes in M-E... it does not seem to me that M-E would work on such principles, simply because it's nature seems very... different... too much "otherworldly" on that... but like I said, anyone can use any view of analysing he wishes

[Gwathagor]

The elves in Tolkien's art have pointy ears - whether or not that characteristic carried over to orcs is debatable. Maybe orcs didn't have ears at all...after all, it never says specifically that they did, right Legate? Just kidding.

Of course, Tolkien also paints Beleg with a pointy beard to go with his pointy ears...

[Gwathagor]

I am inclined to think that Orcs could potentially be good, but that their predisposition for evil would dominate in nearly every case. If there were any good Orcs, they would very VERY few and far between indeed.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

Maybe orcs didn't have ears at all...after all, it never says specifically that they did, right Legate? Just kidding.

Not quite sure, sir I know about eyes, at least, but ears may also be there... keen ears, sure, I believe it is mentioned somewhere...

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Not quite sure, sir I know about eyes, at least, but ears may also be there... keen ears, sure, I believe it is mentioned somewhere...

I think you may be right.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Actually even more - I am not aware that there is even a conclusion that Elves had pointy ears. And if there is not a definite word on it (which I believe there isn't), then I would even believe (for myself) that they did not have them. If nothing else, in the "canonical" books, there is not a mention of the shape of the Elven ears, so no need to assume they were pointy. Anyway, that's not the point (indeed!).

The Quenyan LASSE is cognate to both "leaf'' and "hear", indicating a similarity between the two (again, I am at work so I can't quote definitive text, but it is in a Tolkien draft commented on by his son). In addition, Tolkien comments that Bilbo had slightly pointed, almost elvish ears, but I cannot transcribe the direct quote until I get home (whenever the hell that will be).

This all refers to Elvish ears, of course, and does not have anything to do with Orkish ears.

P.S. The squint-eyed Southerner in Bree and his dark companion (obviously half-orcs spies) were predisposed to looking mannish. Pointed, Elvish ears would no doubt look out-of-place and cause suspicion.

[Morthoron]

I am back home and found the references to Elves and ears, seeing as I can't rely on my memory (please refer to my muddled previous post):

a) Tolkien described Bilbo in a letter, dated 1938, in the following way: A round, jovial face; ears only slightly pointed and "elvish". The quotes are his.

b) People observe that the elvish root LAS- meaning "leaf" is cognate with LAS- meaning "to listen", which gave the word used to refer to the ears.

3) In The Etymologies, published by Christopher Tolkien in The Lost Road and Other Writings, there appears the following note at the entry LAS- (giving the word lasse "leaf"): 'The Quendian ears were more pointed and leaf-shaped than... Unfortunately, the last word is unreadable, but human is surmised, with probability.' These etymologies date from the end of the 1930s.

[Animalmother]

Let a few thousand fantasy years pass, and everybody becomes soft on orcs.

Tolkien was not soft on orcs. His heroes Legolas and Gimli much resemble Mukai and Noda, the two Japanese officers in China in AD 1937 whose contest to be first to behead one-hundred Chinese soldiers won the admiration of the Tokyo newspapers.

Neither Gandalf nor others among the Wise ever said a word against the genocidal extermination of orcs. Implicitly, they approved it. Even the Ents and Huorns exterminated orcs.

Whether or not there's an ethical case to be made for the wartime slaying of whole classes of people as an act of political justice (e.g., the Royal Air Force's slaying of the inhabitants of Hamburg, Germany in AD 1943), Tolkien's coalition of the willing, the Free Peoples, went beyond mere lawless warfare all the way to genocide.

[Erurin]

I do not view it as genocide as much as extermination.
The Orcs of Middle-earth were incapable of any motive besides violence and self-preservation. After the first generation of orcs, they ceased to be mutated Elves and were, very much so and only so, Orcs. They stopped being the Children of Illuvatar and became monsters of Morgoth, like the spiders of Mirkwood- though bred by Morgoth and birthed by the Maia Ungoliant- were no longer Maiar. The Orcs were unredeemable, unswervingly evil.
So the killing of thousands of Orcs is justifyable if one keeps in mind that when Morgoth twisted the Elves bodies, he twisted their souls and minds, too.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Erurin

I do not view it as genocide as much as extermination.

Giving it a different name makes it look so much more rational and justifiable, doesn't it? 'Exterminate' is something you do to vermin, not humanoid creatures. What happened to Gandalf's "I pity even his slaves"?

And on a not quite so serious tangent:

Originally Posted by Erurin

the spiders of Mirkwood- though bred by Morgoth and birthed by the Maia Ungoliant-

Leaving alone the question whether Ungoliant was a Maia or something else, I'm not sure Morgoth had much of a hand in their breeding. I'd suppose at least Ungoliant herself wasn't particularly amenable to participating in any plans of his after the Thieves' Quarrel; he may have got his hands on one or the other of her offspring and twisted them a bit (or found that they didn't really need much twisting), but on the whole they would have happily multiplied by themselves.