Feanor's Wrath

[WarBringer]

You know, Felagund, at first I could not believe what I was reading, that any elf could defeat a Vala. But I have to admit, your argument did sway me some. Fingolfin was not the equal of Feanor and yet gravely wounded Morgoth, giving him a permanent limp and making him fear combat. There was a chance, although I still don't know if I believe it, that Feanor could have slain Morgoth, considering his keen sword, his recent departure of Valinor, and his rage. Most convincing was your "multiple balrog" argument. Feanor held his own, so it is interesting what would have happened had Morgoth faced Feanor.

[mormegil]

I is said that Tuor killed 5 Balrog's himself. So I guess while it's very impressive to take on multiple balrogs it's not unheard of. While Tuor had some with him it is said also that Feanor had some as well.

"Fëanor was surrounded, with few friends about him."

Granted Tuor probably had more but Morgoth is no balrog. Even multiple balrogs would be less a challenge than Morgoth.

However, we need to consider if it is actually possible to slay Morgoth. There may be some previous post on it but I haven't been able to find it. Anyway while I think it is possible to rob him of his body he wouldn't be killed in the traditional sense.

Lastly, how would Feanor arrived at morgoth. The only way Fingolfin arrived was in his wrath the servants of Morgoth thought him to be Orome. Could there ever have been combat between the two?

[Anguirel]

It's generally accepted that Balrogs come in two sizes-the size of Durin's Bane, and little ones conceived earlier in the Canon, larger than Orcs, but not massively powerful. The ones Tuor nailed at Gondolin were probably of the smaller variety; whereas, since Feanor was fighting Gothmog himself, the Balrog-train would have been the most powerful and deadly under Morgoth's command. So I'd say there is a difference between Tuor's feat and Feanor's.

About Feanor and Morgoth; Fingolfin was very much fey and berserk when he attacked; he had seen the realms of the Noldor utterly vanquished at the Bragollach. But granted Feanor was madder still. All the same, I don't think we should skirt so easily over the Valarin messenger's verdict:

"Valar he is, thou saist. Then thou hast sworn in vain, for none of the Valar canst thou overcome...within the halls of Ea, not though Eru whom thou namest had made thee thrice greater than thou art."

Of course, a possible interpretation could be that Morgoth is no long a Vala, as hinted by "thou saist".

[Felagund]

Even if he just robbed him of his physical form, it would be a feat. I believe he could have done it, for I don't think Fëanor was as bound by the Oath as were his sons, though perhaps it is because he never had a chance to really be caught up in it.

Comparing Fingolfin to Fëanor in terms of power is ridiculous. Honestly, Fëanor was the most powerful non-Vala to exist within the sphere of Arda. He was the strongest, and most skilled, and let's not forget that he was fey, and that his bodied fell to ash when his spirit left it. Even his will was a match for that of Morgoth's. In Valmar he looked in the eyes of Morgoth, and his spirit did not waver. The only other being in all Arda who can claim that was Luthien Tinuviel, and she was also a being of great power, with a high Doom before her.

I definitely think Fëanor would have had a chance, had he been able to fight his way through the Balrogs. Or had Morgoth not been afraid to face him, for we all know that he feared Fëanor, and hated him. Anyways, Fëanor would have had a better chance than Fingolfin, and Fingolfin aquitted himself well indeed. It's up in the air... what do other people think?

[mormegil]

Felagund -- I don't think Fëanor was as bound by the Oath as were his sons, though perhaps it is because he never had a chance to really be caught up in it.

I must wholly disagree on that point. I think that Fëanor ties to the oath were even greater. He was the oath maker and knew what he was doing.

I still hold that Fëanor, while possibly a better warrior than Fingolfin, he was tatically unsound in many things he did. He was far too impulsive to be truly great. Impulsiveness doesn't mesh well with good tatical manuevers, which would be needed in combat with Morgoth.

I think people tend to make Fëanor greater than he was. He seems to have choosen a path similar to Morgoth himself. To a much lesser degree but both were born great and in their own lusts and desires they destroyed themselves. Now I'm not outright saying that Fëanor is evil per se, but in the silm we read that he is still in the Halls of Mandos. He did do many grevious things and by his oath caused many more to happen. And I do believe that he shares a great deal of blame for the acts of his sons.

[Saurreg]

If Feanor had survived his encounter with Gothmog and his balrogs, he would only be hastening the defeat of the Noldor on middle earth.

Without the death of Feanor, repentful Maedhros would not have been in powerful of the lesser host of the eldar and I do not think Fingolfin would be that willing to seek reconciliation. It would be far easier for the Enemy to struck at the elves, at each divided host than to attack one united people.

I wonder if Feanor had lived, would he come into armed conflict with Thingol?

[WarBringer]

Many believe that Feanor would have fought with Thingol, myself included. However, I do not believe that he would have hastened the defeat of the Noldor. I believe that he would have united and strengthened them as only he, the one who first drove them to Middle Earth, could do.

[Celuien]

Originally Posted by Saurreg

I wonder if Feanor had lived, would he come into armed conflict with Thingol?

I think that conflict between Thingol and Feanor would have been certain.

'I marvel at you. son of Earwen, said Thingol, 'that you would come to the board of your kinsman thus red-handed from the slaying of your mother's kin, and yet say naught in defence, nor yet seek any pardon!'

Can you imagine if that had been directed at Feanor rather than Finrod? And, of course, all of the blame was laid on Feanor's doorstep. I can't help but think that the shadow of the kinslaying would eventually have caused a war to break out between the Sindar and Noldor if Feanor had still been their leader. I also don't see Feanor and Fingolfin becoming particularly friendly after the Helcaraxe:

"Fingolfin...desired now as never before to come by some way to Middle-earth, and meet Feanor again."

and

"Small love for Feanor or his sons had those that marched at last behind him, and blew their trumpets in Middle-earth at the first rising of the moon."

Sounds like the beginning of a war between the houses of the Noldor. Overall, I'd have to think that Feanor would have been bad news for the Noldor in Middle-earth, despite his brilliance.