Feanor's Wrath
 

This is a topic that has always made me think, especially since Feanor is my favorite character in the Silmarillion. We all know that in a fit of arrogance and rage, thinking to fight his way into the very presence of Morgoth, Feanor was surrounded and slain by Gothmog, and his Balrogs. My question is, do you think the fate of the Noldor would have been any different if Feanor had survived? I'll post my opinion after of few of you have. I'm curious to hear what you have to say...

This old thread might be of interest to you, WarBringer. :)

Thanks Phantom, I have actually seen that thread before and wanted to expand on it, but i thank you nevertheless for your thoughtfulness...
To clarify, my question is not whether Feanor's death was good for the Noldor, but rather would would have happened in Feanor had lived (predictions, thoughts, history altering events, etc)

I think a likely outcome would have been an arms race. Certainly Fëanor had the technical skills to continue to construct new and better weapons, to which he would have devoted all his energies trying to force his way into Angband and regain the Silmarils.

Of course Morgoth did devote all his energies into creating more fearsome monsters, which eventually allowed him to break the siege of Angband and drive the Elves south.

Certainly Morgoth would have had a harder time doing this if Fëanor had been around to counter him.

On the other hand, there probably would not have been the 450 years of peace before the Dagor Bragollach during which the Edain became enlightened by their contact with the Elves. Fëanor certainly would not have been interested in constructing anything but weaponry until he had regained the Silmarils. It seems that for Men, their contact with the Elves might have given them lots of military technology but not much wisdom or culture.

In short, the War of the Jewels might have looked a lot like WWI, perhaps a reason the Tolkien didn't write the story that way.

More like WWII
 

I can't substantiate much of my conjunctions, but it was prophesied that Feanor can never defeat Morgoth...

The picture that forms in my mind was eerily familiar... Feanor led the Noldor in Beleriand, conquered every inch land and imposed his 'glorious Noldor culture' on every turf except for Angband. He and his artisians designed complex and deadly weapons to lay siege on Angband. He try to 'persuade' Doriath and his astranged kinsman into alliance, but fail to do so. So he declared war on Doriath as well... Then one day, the skies fumed over as Morgoth unleashed his countless minions onto the Noldor...

Of course, the entire episode has too little background to hold any water, but Feanor's personality echo too much of some past megalomaniac to be discounted...

Even if he had lived, I believe Feanor would not necessarily have helped the cause of the Eldar. In fact, I've considered that the destruction of men may have come about. Think about it- Morgoth had sowed within him an anger toward men, the "usurpers" of the Eldar's land. Feanor may have sought their destruction, which would have never allowed for the unions of man and elf, which may have allowed Morgoth and/or Sauron to rule forever...this is just one of my many opinions on this issue, and im curious to hear what you all think of it...

Not only that, but one can only imagine Feanor trying to get along with Thingol. Two Headstrong elves=trouble...

I believe that had Feanor lived he would have brought destruction on the Noldor much sooner. His impatience led to tatically unsound manuvers and combined with his ability to get others to follow him would have led to a premature war in which the Noldor would have suffered a grim defeat and their numbers would have waned greatly. Also I think the schism between Fingolfin's people and Feanor's would have been much more difficult to heal.

Very true mormegil, but perhaps even a premature war would not have been a grim defeat if Feanor, most skilled of the Elves, had prepared them.

But I feel that the main problem is that he wouldn't have prepared. Just like he didn't prepare for the entire journey...nor did he take much thought by marching up to Thangorodrim and leaving his army behind...I just think there is too much wrath and pride in him to make logical decisions...plus I think that feeling his oath weigh upon him he would rush his hand again if he survived and be caught in one of morgoth's traps.

Yet he may be the only person who could have united everyone under one banner to face Morgoth.

I have to strongly agree with mormegil. If Feanor had avoided the balrogs, he would have run right to face Morgoth. And got killed. Morgoth would have been wounded, too, but not slayed. Remember the Fingolfin vs. Morgoth's outcome.

I cannot see any else possible alternative history. Of course, all the events would have run in a different way, if Feanor had been less harsh, and more calm. But that Feanor is not the Feanor we all know (and love?).

I think had Feanor gotten control of himself and his wrath. Then yes he would have been a very great general. The two main problems he would face are uniting the people under his banner and shaking off the curse of Mandos...the whole treachery from within thing.

The most interesting "alternate history" scenario would have
been the Noldor and elf allies returning to
Middle-earth without the Curse of Mandos, as was clearly possible. It
was clearly stated (in The Silmarillion?) that
there was no bar per se to elves leaving Valinor. Without a Curse
it is conceivable that a "balance of power"
might have evolved in Beleriand and that (like in the 1940s-1980s
Cold War) the conflict between elves/Edain and
Morgoth might have moved to the Third World of the rest of
Middle-earth, rather like the standoff in Europe
between NATO and the Warsaw Pact, in which case you could
have the houses of the dwarves and men
as much sought after allies by both sides.

This bitter blade's opinions
 

Not sure I quite buy your Cold War idea, Tuor. Maybe it's just the astoundingly dull way we were taught it.

On Feanor; he was, like Luthien but in a different way, too bright to exist for long. He would never have moderated his ambition to avenge his father-which to him was a much greater blow, of course, that the rape of the Silmarils. He could not but die. Apart from anything else, his fiery genius would have consumed him at the last. He is an Achillean figure who has chosen immortality above survival.

This, much though Feanor impresses me, was a good thing. Maedhros, Fingolfin and Fingon were far more diplomatic, patient and able rulers. Feanor would have raged against everything he saw as constricting his revenge. Far frm uniting the Elves, he would have been severely divisive; at worst he would have ended up doing Morgoth's work for him, as his unfortunate oathbound sons did much later.

Oddly, though, Feanor's temperament could be said to have lingered on to an extent in Galadriel, though she exercised it with more wisdom.

I wonder how Feanor gets on in Mandos; but I would not be surprised if he defies Namo and the other Valar to this day. Perhaps Miriel has calmed his anger...

On the contrary, I believe his fiery genius would have spurred him on. Keep in mind that Feanor was not a suicidal, homicidal elf consumed with war. He was a elf of great subtlety of hand, and, given time, would have been able to think things through. Surely such an elf would realize "Oh S---, did I just leave paradise?" Think about Maedhros, his son. As he matured, Maedhros became quite virtous, recognizing that only through a united force could the elves defeat Morgoth. And, as they say, the apple doesnt fall far from the tree...

While Feanor had virtues, in temperament he and Maedhros bear
comparison to Sonny Corleone ("you can't do business with
that hothead") and his brother Michael.

An Elder/Edain alliance, however, without the Curse of Mandos
and led by Maedhros, would not only be united
and,of course, not cursed (duh!) but would have a maia of their
own as an ally with the same haven of Menegroth to rally
at if they suffered defeats. And perhaps with
periodic reinforcements from Aman since there would be nothing to
prevent further elvish emigration.

Well,Feanor was the creator of many beautiful jewels and also the creator of deadly Noldor swords.If he lived longer,he would have probably constructed some great weapon or something like that.
But,the Sindar that lived in Doriath would have heard who leaded the attack that killed so many of their beloved cousins in Valinor.
So,Noldor would become stronger,but they would lose the help of the Sindar and maybe,because of Feanor,a war could start between Noldor and Sindar,wich would Morgoth use.
So,even though that Feanor is also my favorite character,i think that it's good that he didn't live for long in Middle-Earth.His work couldn't make so much difference,so Noldor still couldn't defeat Morgoth,and maybe it would be much worse if war started between alves,because Middle-Earth would be lost.

I think that the personality of Fëanor is divided into his sons. Look at how different each of his sons were...compare Curufin to Maglor. I don't think the Fëanor would have matured in the same way that Maedhros did. I think he was so consumed with himself and his own desires (getting the Silmarils) that he would drive a wedge into any possible alliance between his people and others so that there would be no alliance. And withou an alliance, the free people of middle earth would fail in any attempt to overthrow morgoth. Not that there was ever much hope anyway.

Feanor and Diplomacy
 

Feanor, by sheer force of will, could unite all the elves under his banner, except for Thingol. Both are egomaniacs and power mongers who are more interested in advancing themselves than the people they rule.

FEANOR might be an egomaniac and a power-monger, although I wouldn't use those exact terms myself, but I do not see any such case for Thingol.

An egomaniac is a person who is concerned first and foremost with himself/herself. In what way is Thingol like this? His first concerns are for his people: he protects them in war, guards them from the troublesome Noldor, refuses to bring them into doomed battles. He also cares for his family: he doesn't want to see Luthien hurt by marrying a mortal, but when he cannot change that, he accepts Beren, and mourns his death. Later, he accepts Turin, and when Turin leaves Doriath, he does his best to safeguard him and have him brought back. These are not the actions of an ego-maniac.

As for a power-monger, if Thingol was concerned first and foremost with power, would he have permitted the Noldor to settle AT ALL in Beleriand? Would he have tolerated the power of Morgoth and the Noldorin kings? No, he would have been right there with them, striving for the top-dog position.

I'm not saying that Thingol was perfect, but give the guy a bit of credit. The record in The Silmarillion doesn't show him as THAT bad.

Also...
 

...the hallowed Silmaril tolerated him, and filled him with its light. Had he been as War Bringer describes, the Silmaril would have burnt him as it burnt poor Maedhros and Maglor.

The death of Feanor's father sent him fey, far more so even than usual. Fey characters in literature and history are doomed, incapable of actions that are not two-edged in their destruction. Had Feanor reacted in a saner way, and been able to calm down, he would not, as others have said, have been Feanor.

I tend to disagree with the Cold War analogy. The reason I say this has to do with the difference in the temperaments of those concerned. The Cold War, fortunately for all concerned, stayed "cold" rather than involving the use of both sides' nuclear arsenals (in which case it's unlikely that we would be having this discussion now).

This happened because both sides were deterred by the prospect of being annihilated by the other side's weapons. To put it another way, both sides ultimately cared more about their own survival than about destroying their enemies, and thus maintained coexistance for 40 years in spite of great tensions and large differences in ideology.

What about the situation in Beleriand? Well, Tolkien says that by this point in time Morgoth had become fundamentally a nihilist (HoME X). Morgoth would therefore have been perfectly happy with Mutual Assured Destruction, being willing to destroy himself at the same time as the rest of Arda.

As for Fëanor, he was constrained by his Oath. Recall that the exact wording was Note that it wasn't actually to regain the Silmarils, just to attack anyone who stands in the way of their regaining them.

It thus seems unlikely that, had either side possessed the Middle-earth equivalent of weapons of mass destruction, that they would have seen any reason not to use them immediately and indiscriminately, regardless of any collateral damage. The problem (for the elves) is, that this ultimately works towards Morgoth's purpose of the destruction of Arda. Tolkien says that it was for this reason (the collateral damage) that the Valar were unwilling to immediately attack Morgoth when he returned to Middle-earth. Instead they waited 600 years, for Morgoth to expend most of his power fighting the elves. Even so, the War of Wrath caused the destruction of most of Beleriand.

That's true, that statement regarding Thingol was on oversight on my part

It is my humble contention that Fëanor could have taken Morgoth in single combat. He was the mightiest of all the Children of Eru Illuvatar, he still had the light of Aman in his eyes, he way fey, for he had grief and anger in equal measure, and his sword would have been much sharper than Fingolfin's. Speaking of which, Fingolfin was no where near as mighty as Fëanor, yet he sorely wounded Morgoth in single combat. Plus the light of the Trees had had time to dim in his eyes before their battle, and nor did he have the UTTER MADNESS that consumed Fëanor. The only reason Gothmog got Fëanor at all is because he was alone and surrounded, and I quote

"Thus it was that he drew far ahead of the van of his host; and seeing this the servants of Morgoth turned to bay, and there issued from Angband Balrogs to aid them. There upon the confines of Dor Daedeloth, the land of Morgoth, Fëanor was surrounded, with few friends about him. Long he fought on, and undismayed, though he was wrapped in fire and wounded with many wounds; but at the last he was smitten to the ground by Gothmog, Lord of Balrogs, whom Ecthelion after slew in Gondolin." -The Silmarillion, pg. 107

So you must assume Fëanor was fighting MULTIPLE Balrogs, alone, and unaided, and nor was he particularly bothered by all this until Gothmog got in a cheap shot. I definitely think Fëanor could have been the doom of Morgoth, though what he would do afterwards with the Silmarils in hand is anybody's guess.

You know, Felagund, at first I could not believe what I was reading, that any elf could defeat a Vala. But I have to admit, your argument did sway me some. Fingolfin was not the equal of Feanor and yet gravely wounded Morgoth, giving him a permanent limp and making him fear combat. There was a chance, although I still don't know if I believe it, that Feanor could have slain Morgoth, considering his keen sword, his recent departure of Valinor, and his rage. Most convincing was your "multiple balrog" argument. Feanor held his own, so it is interesting what would have happened had Morgoth faced Feanor.

I is said that Tuor killed 5 Balrog's himself. So I guess while it's very impressive to take on multiple balrogs it's not unheard of. While Tuor had some with him it is said also that Feanor had some as well.

"Fëanor was surrounded, with few friends about him."

Granted Tuor probably had more but Morgoth is no balrog. Even multiple balrogs would be less a challenge than Morgoth.

However, we need to consider if it is actually possible to slay Morgoth. There may be some previous post on it but I haven't been able to find it. Anyway while I think it is possible to rob him of his body he wouldn't be killed in the traditional sense.

Lastly, how would Feanor arrived at morgoth. The only way Fingolfin arrived was in his wrath the servants of Morgoth thought him to be Orome. Could there ever have been combat between the two?

Balrogs and balrogs
 

It's generally accepted that Balrogs come in two sizes-the size of Durin's Bane, and little ones conceived earlier in the Canon, larger than Orcs, but not massively powerful. The ones Tuor nailed at Gondolin were probably of the smaller variety; whereas, since Feanor was fighting Gothmog himself, the Balrog-train would have been the most powerful and deadly under Morgoth's command. So I'd say there is a difference between Tuor's feat and Feanor's.

About Feanor and Morgoth; Fingolfin was very much fey and berserk when he attacked; he had seen the realms of the Noldor utterly vanquished at the Bragollach. But granted Feanor was madder still. All the same, I don't think we should skirt so easily over the Valarin messenger's verdict:

"Valar he is, thou saist. Then thou hast sworn in vain, for none of the Valar canst thou overcome...within the halls of Ea, not though Eru whom thou namest had made thee thrice greater than thou art."

Of course, a possible interpretation could be that Morgoth is no long a Vala, as hinted by "thou saist".

Even if he just robbed him of his physical form, it would be a feat. I believe he could have done it, for I don't think Fëanor was as bound by the Oath as were his sons, though perhaps it is because he never had a chance to really be caught up in it.

Comparing Fingolfin to Fëanor in terms of power is ridiculous. Honestly, Fëanor was the most powerful non-Vala to exist within the sphere of Arda. He was the strongest, and most skilled, and let's not forget that he was fey, and that his bodied fell to ash when his spirit left it. Even his will was a match for that of Morgoth's. In Valmar he looked in the eyes of Morgoth, and his spirit did not waver. The only other being in all Arda who can claim that was Luthien Tinuviel, and she was also a being of great power, with a high Doom before her.

I definitely think Fëanor would have had a chance, had he been able to fight his way through the Balrogs. Or had Morgoth not been afraid to face him, for we all know that he feared Fëanor, and hated him. Anyways, Fëanor would have had a better chance than Fingolfin, and Fingolfin aquitted himself well indeed. It's up in the air... what do other people think?

I must wholly disagree on that point. I think that Fëanor ties to the oath were even greater. He was the oath maker and knew what he was doing.

I still hold that Fëanor, while possibly a better warrior than Fingolfin, he was tatically unsound in many things he did. He was far too impulsive to be truly great. Impulsiveness doesn't mesh well with good tatical manuevers, which would be needed in combat with Morgoth.

I think people tend to make Fëanor greater than he was. He seems to have choosen a path similar to Morgoth himself. To a much lesser degree but both were born great and in their own lusts and desires they destroyed themselves. Now I'm not outright saying that Fëanor is evil per se, but in the silm we read that he is still in the Halls of Mandos. He did do many grevious things and by his oath caused many more to happen. And I do believe that he shares a great deal of blame for the acts of his sons.

If Feanor had survived his encounter with Gothmog and his balrogs, he would only be hastening the defeat of the Noldor on middle earth.

Without the death of Feanor, repentful Maedhros would not have been in powerful of the lesser host of the eldar and I do not think Fingolfin would be that willing to seek reconciliation. It would be far easier for the Enemy to struck at the elves, at each divided host than to attack one united people.

I wonder if Feanor had lived, would he come into armed conflict with Thingol?

Many believe that Feanor would have fought with Thingol, myself included. However, I do not believe that he would have hastened the defeat of the Noldor. I believe that he would have united and strengthened them as only he, the one who first drove them to Middle Earth, could do.

So you're saying, getting that nasty ol' Thingol out of the way would have been a blessing?

I must say, WarBringer, I'm extremely glad you weren't in command of the host of exiled Noldor! It would have been a black day for the poor old Sindar when you touched Middle-earth sand...

But I feel this argument is in the end fruitless. Feanor is to a great extent a model of the literary archetype of the doomed genius, the hopeless non-conformist. His Spirit of Fire could not have ruled and ordered, would not have been content with anything less than revenge. He had to go too far. You might say, that's partly what he's there for. I say this despite, nay because of, my admiration for him (one that Gandalf supports in LOTR). He was a peerless artist-the greatest. He was a magnificent orator-the greatest. In terms of warrior prowess, he wasn't far from the top. This led him, however, into hubris, and nemesis, sadly, was completely inevitable. Indeed, had Feanor lived and settled down to any degree, the story would be much less satisfying-to wit, an anticlimax.

I agree Anguirel.

It's a pity we are only acquainted with Feanor the Acerbic, Feanor the Dangerous, Feanor the Wrathful. I would suspect that had Tolkien wanted to, he could have made this passionate eldar the most life-like character in the books. We can only imagine what the "normal" Feanor could have been like - was he a loving husband? A nurturing father? A great builder and leader of his people - one that was beloved and trusted? And how about Feanor the scholar and lover of lores and literature?

For shame... For shame...

Exactly. And the closest we get to that is when Gandalf talks about "Feanor the Artist" in the Two Towers...

I think that conflict between Thingol and Feanor would have been certain.

Can you imagine if that had been directed at Feanor rather than Finrod? And, of course, all of the blame was laid on Feanor's doorstep. I can't help but think that the shadow of the kinslaying would eventually have caused a war to break out between the Sindar and Noldor if Feanor had still been their leader. I also don't see Feanor and Fingolfin becoming particularly friendly after the Helcaraxe:

and

Sounds like the beginning of a war between the houses of the Noldor. Overall, I'd have to think that Feanor would have been bad news for the Noldor in Middle-earth, despite his brilliance.

An extremely valid point. Rather than a unitive influence, alack, Feanor's mad, ruthless actions would have been disastrously divisive. Indeed, we see a sort of vision of this during the brief period when Maedhros rules as High King before his capture and the hosts of the Noldor are sundered-only to be rejoined by Fingon's bravery, an echo of Fingolfin's forgiveness of Feanor when he released him from the bans of the Valar. (Admittedly Maedhros' crime against Fingon had been small and passive; Feanor's crime against Fingolfin was serious and active. But then Fingolfin's releasing was passive and Fingon's active. It works. Wahey!)

Excuse me?
 

Anguirel, if you can point out where I said "getting that nasty ol' Thingol out of the way would have been a blessing?", I will give you everything in my bank account. Understand that conflict does not mean utter defeat, or even necessarily physical conflict, or else the Noldor would have been defeated on the outset. I simply meant, quite rationally in my opinion, that It would be difficult for two elves of such might to coexist on Middle Earth. In a SEPARATE point, I do believe Feanor could have united the Noldor. Fingolfin was a strong ruler but himself diverted to Feanor while he lived, and yet Fingolfin is accounted among the great High Kings. Imagine Feanor as High King, of whom Fingolfin was but a sub ruler. Feanor, with his strength of will and cunning, would have united the Noldor before long, and would have contested Morgoth in Middle Earth.

In the future, I would ask that no one make rash inferences or jump to conclusion. Conflict does not mean "getting some one out of the way". Also notice that I never used the term "war", I said "fought". Not necessarily physically, in other words.

Sorry if I put words into your mouth, War Bringer...

However, I really don't see how you envisage Feanor and Fingolfin's reconciliation happening. Fingolfin has been led by Feanor into attacking the Teleri. He is the under the Doom of Mandos, due to Feanor. He does not even get a chance to sail on one of the captured ships, due to Feanor. Due to Feanor, he has to cross the Helcaraxe, where many, many of his host-including Turgon's wife, his innocent daughter-in-law, Elenwe-have lost their footing and been drowned.

"Small love" indeed he hath for Feanor. In fact, that's something of an understatement.

Feanor kindled the Noldor to war; but in peaceful ways was not so persuasive. The Teleri could not be urged by him to ferry his host, for example. In any case, Feanor was always bitter about the children of Indis, and may not have wanted to lower himself to negotiations. In other words, on Fingolfin's side those wanting revenge outnumber those wanting peace; on Feanor's side the host is gripped by its lord's fey defiance of any enemy.

This is potentially a terrible war-the Noldor could wipe each other out. Thingol would very likely help Fingolfin. In other words, Feanor is not a universally admired or accepted figure as Fingolfin becomes after Maedhros' abdication. Far from being conjoined, it would take a miracle to stop the hosts coming to blows.

Whether or not Fingolfin would actually attack Feanor is debatable. "To meet someone again" in this context does hold a notion to confront in arms. So when we read that Caesar desired to cross the Adratic as soon as possible to meet Pompey in Asia, it is logical to infer that the former wanted to engage the latter in pitched battle.

But given what we know of Fingolfin's nature and the way Tolkien depicts his "positive" characters, Fingolfin might be simply filled with a desire to accomplish the feat of travelling to Middle Earth even without ships nor Feanor himself. This can be interpreted as him facing an insurmountable challenge and rising to face it.