The Power of Isengard

[Boromir88]

I couldn't agree with you more SpM, Saruman one on one would not beable to destroy Sauron.

I think an important question would be, if Rohan and Gondor found out about Saruman's "ring claiming" would they too rush to fight Saruman? Not necessarily joining forces with Mordor, because I believe that would end bad. But, would the forces of good beable to rush to Orthanc, destroy Saruman before he becomes too strong, and then fend off Mordor? Or would that be too risky? Would Mordor try to wipe out anyone in it's path on the road to Isengard? There are plenty of questions, and plenty of possibilities.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I'm confused about the end of that part of the letter (thanks for providing Boromir). Is it saying that Gandalf would have been able to destroy Sauron? But how if the Ring survived?

[Boromir88]

I'm sort of confused myself about the ending but here's my interpretation of it.

One can imagine the scene in which Gandalf, say, was placed in such a position.

This I take as a hypothetical, "what if?" Just saying, imagine Gandalf having possession of the ring, taking on Sauron, one on one. Then it goes to "balance" the two sides, sort of like at the beginning of a boxing match or football game, where they weigh in on the advantages/disadvantages, strengths/weakness.

On one side the true allegiance of the Ring to Sauron

This would be in favor of Sauron, he has the ring's "true allegiance" he's the "master" of it, not Gandalf.

Then it's the advantages that Gandalf has.

on the other superior strength because Sauron was not actually in possession, and perhaps also because he was weakened by long corruption and expenditure of will in dominating inferiors.

Now we go back to that "what if."

If Gandalf proved the victor, the result would have been for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring; for him it would have been destroyed, taken from him for ever.

Just saying, if Gandalf won, Sauron would have met the same fate as he would have if the ring was destroyed (don't ask me why about that, lol, I'm not totally sure why).

But the Ring and all its works would have endured. It would have been the master in the end.

This just says, with Gandalf as the victor, Sauron destroyed, in the end the power of the ring would have endured and as it says "becomes the master." Which I take of as, becoming the "master" over Gandalf. I just basically broke the paragraph into sentences, plus that's only my interpretation, I would love to see how others interpret that last paragraph.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

....Boromir, no-one took up the challenge!

Look back at Tolkien's letter a few posts ago. The last paragraph does confuse me: why would Sauron be destroyed and sundered from the Ring forever if he lost a fight to the Ring-wielding Gandalf? I had thought the survival of the Ring meant the survival of Sauron.

Any thoughts?

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

Any thoughts?

Yes.

Originally Posted by Eomer

... why would Sauron be destroyed and sundered from the Ring forever if he lost a fight to the Ring-wielding Gandalf? I had thought the survival of the Ring meant the survival of Sauron.

I think that you are right to an extent. The spirit of Sauron (or at least that part of it which he imbued in the Ring) would continue to exist and would exhibit itself in the actions of a Ring-mastered Gandalf. However, what Tolkien seems to be saying is that, even though the Ring would master Gandalf, Sauron himself would by then have been sundered from it and would therefore no longer be capable of assuming a physical manifestation in Arda.

Nevertheless, in this light, the Ring might be seen as a "win-win" option for Sauron. As long as no one else claims it and defeats him with it, then he reamins secure. If someone does claim it and is able to defeat him with it (and only Gandalf is portrayed as having any reasonable chance of doing so), he might be "destroyed", but his works will live on. The new Ringbearer becomes, in effect, his heir. And he doesn't have to worry about anyone destroying it, because the only place where this can be done is in his backyard and it is impossible for anyone willingly to do so anyway. Of course, he didn't bargain for Eru changing the rules ...

[Boromir88]

Eomer, sounds like you are looking for an answer that Tolkien wrote in a letter to Mr. Milton Waldman...

While he (Sauron) wore it, his power won earth was actually enhanced. But even if he did not wear it, that power existed and was in "rapport" with himself: he was not "diminished." Unless some other seized it and became possessed of it. If that happened, the new possessor could (if sufficiently strong and heroic by nature) challenge Sauron, become master of all that he had learned or done since the making of the One Ring, and so overthrow him and usurp his place.

So, we have the Ring's power is still "rapport" or "bound" to Sauron. However, if someone comes along (say Gandalf) and is strong enough to challenge him with it (one on one) and is able to beat him that bond would be broken. The Ring's powers would no longer be bound to Sauron, therefor he would be destroyed for good. However, as SpM says, Sauron's works would live on, as the new Ring-Bearer would turn up to be a new dark lord. If you're still confused check out this thread

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Well, well, thanking you kindly, my friends. That does indeed explain it.