The Power of Isengard
 

If the forces of Isengard had found and eliminated Frodo and gave the Ring to Saruman, what would he have done? I feel that in an act of pride and pomp he would have gathered his armies and tried to defeat the power of Mordor in an act of treachery against Sauron as he was no stranger to the art of betrayl, whilst trying to destoy the Free Peoples, what do you think?

I totally agree with you on this one. If Saruman did some how get the ring then I think that he would have tried to wage war on the whole of middle earth. I think that Saruman was just arrogant enough to do this and it could be what he was planning to do the whole time anyway.

In the short term he might have done just the opposite. As a student of ring lore
he would have realized it would take some time to master the ring and so
could have gone on the defensive, ringing his forces about Isengard. Could this
have led to an alliance of cenvenience between Rohan, Gondor, and Sauron
against Saruman?

Between Rohan, Gondor and Mordor? Surely Rohan and Gondor would take this chance to recover their strength and take on the distracted Sauron, whilst he was busy trying to get inside Isengard. The War would be long and extremely bloody, and Sauron would win in the end.

Interesting question Tuor, As Eomer said, a definate alliance between Rohan and Gondor. I do think if Saruman was able to make a great force so fast, Mordor would have allied with Saruman, or would have just stayed out of it and wait for the perfect moment to make it's strike. Here is my true feeling on if Saruman got the ring though...

Saruman if he could figure out a way to wield the ring and get armies to flock to Isengard, then yes, Saruman could overthrow Sauron. Yes, Saruman studied for years in ring-lore, he even tried to make his own ring, which as of right now, it seems that ring was a failure. I'm still not convinced Saruman would know how to do that, his arrogance could get into the way. We have to remember, just because someone has the ring doesn't make them all powerful, unstoppable, first Saruman must know how to use the Ring, for example commanding Sauron's armies, commanding the Nazgul, if Saruman could be able to do that, then we are getting somewhere.

Indeed yes ,but I do not think after getting the ring Saruman would be so arrogant as to lauch an attack on the Dark Lord ,I think he would bid his time ( as he said to Gandalf ) ,he would wait till the Dark Lord launches his attack on Gondor and Roahn and then when his armies are scattered ,he will attack the Dark Lord .

But he will have to get armies which he does not have ,from where he will get these I do not know??

I agree that this would have been Saruman's best strategy. But he is unlikely to have had much choice in the matter. As soon as Sauron became aware that Saruman had the Ring, surely he would attack him with everything he could.

So, the most likely outcome would be a conflict between Saruman's forces and those of Sauron. The latter would probably prevail, and then it would come down to a straight fight between Saruman and Sauron for the Ring. It is conceivable that Saruman would have a chance, but the smart money would probably be on the Red Eye rather than the White Hand.

The interesting question is what do the good guys do while all this is going on? An alliance with either would surely be out of the question since, whichever way the conflict went, it would spell disater for the Free Peoples. Or perhaps their best hope would be to feign an alliance and hope that someone (Gandalf?) could get sufficiently close to the final confrontation between Saruman and Sauron so as to be able to seize the Ring and use it to defeat the victor while he was in a weakened state. But then what happens ...?

Denethor or (in later years) Boromir would go to claim the Ring for themselves when the armies of Sauron and Saruman had been weakened. Gandalf, Elrond, etc. would realise this folly but would they be able to do anything about it?

Interesting point, but a big factor in Denethor's despair was what he saw (via the Palantir of Minas Tirith) as Sauron's swift and inevitable victory over Gondor. With the immediate threat removed and Sauron less devoted to influencing him, might Denethor's undeniable wisdom have caused him to listen to the counsels of the Wise? But then again, would he have been prepared to yield to Aragorn's claim to the throne? It seems unlikely ...

Sauron and Saruman would surely fight, but Sauruman most likely would wait for Sauron to attack Isengard. To reach Isengard, Sauron would have to fight through Gondor and Rohan, so Saruman would have a little more time. Perhaps Rohan would even have fought for him had Gandalf not freed Theoden from Wormtongue.

Good points Zebedee. To add to Saucepan man's comments, it does seem likely that Denethor would be a better leader of Gondor in this case. However, the Aragorn-situation would likely have had a similar effect on his decision-making (albeit not as spectacular an influence as the palantir did). It would not have led to any flaming suicidal leaps ( :p ) from the Steward, but it would have poisoned his relationship with the Wise.

Answer: die.

The geograpraphy of Middle-Earth is not kind to the forces of good: for Saruman and Sauron to fight each other, either one or both of them would first have to go through Minas Tirith and Rohan. By the time S & S were done with one another, there wouldn't be much left of the forces of Good!

Not necessarily. There is one crucial favorable geographical feature for the good
guys, the White Mountains. Assuming a fairly evenly divided bad guys (with
Saruman holding the ring but unsure of how to effectively control it) Rohan can
withdraw to mountain strongholds and across the Isen, and Gondor to South Gondor. If they beat off the corsairs there could even be effective coordination to the west between Gondor and Rohan, and Mordor forces would be
stretched between defending Mordor, threatening the good guys and attacking
Saruman. It could be a long, nasty war of attrition- especially if there was some
peripheral Lorien intervention and Saruman/Sauron fighting spread to the fringes
of Fangorn and the ents felt it necessary to intervene.

Hmmmm, interesting thought....

If Saruman got hold of the Ring, yes, Sauron would waste no time in trying to take it from him. But then, isn't the Ring's main objective is to get back to its Master? How can one overthrow Sauron if the object of the Power was formed from his will? The more powerful the Ring's wielder, the greater the corruption.

Galadriel sensed this and was able to overcome the Ring's temptation.

But the original question was... "What would have Saruman done?"

In my humble opinion.... in light of what the Ring is capable of doing, Saruman would probably have forced his will among the people and try to "overthrow" Sauron. But in the process he would have become a dictator, becoming a shadow of the Dark Lord. And when Saruman, thinking he was in control, would eventually succumb to Sauron's will. He would be in a similar situation as Denethor with the Palantiri. Sauron letting him have his way (or so it may seem), letting him see what the Dark Lord wanted him to see... but feeding him with lies until he was totally corrupted.

And the final conclusion? If the Ring had fallen into Saruman's hand... it would have found its way straight to Sauron.

But the Ring could be used to over through Saroun. When Aragorn confronted him with the Palantir, Sauron hastened his attack on Minas Tirith to destroy Aragorn's power base before he could get there. He thought Aragorn had the Ring, and though he would not have mastered it, Sauron wasn't a fool, and he didn't want give him time.

Although it may have taken him a while, Saruman would have been able to master the ring and in that would have overthrown Sauron. Having mastered hte ring he would have been able to take control of Sauron's forces, including the nazgul and would have defeated the forces of good. The result would have been the same as if Sauron had regained the ring except the power would have been in Isenguard not Mordor.

The situation might have been even more complicated related to the Ring.
Discussing Frodo taking the Ring, in Letters #246 JRRT observes:
But as to who would control Sauron's other forces, Saruman with the Ring or
Sauron with close proximity and the nazgul????? And of course, JRRT's above
musing was in Sep., 1963, and therefore probably not quite canon.

Oh, and how about this for tactical speculation: either the nazgul on their
pteradactyls or Dunedain with eagles pull off a commando raid landing on top
of Orthanc (like the German army in 1940 at Fort Eben Emael in Belgium or Otto
Skorzeny rescuing Mussolini in 1944). Orthanc might have weak spots like the
gate of Minas Tirith on its roof or balcony windows.

Where are you guys getting the information that Saruman could have, in any way, overthrown Sauron using Sauron's own Ring?

Eomer, one on one, Saruman could not have defeated Sauron, as Letter 246 points out. But, if Saruman could summon himself an army he could overthrow Sauron. However, I don't see how Saruman could be able to do that, in the amount of time he would have.

Saruman did have an army. It would have been just a small nuisance, however, that Sauron had a truly vast army.

Very true :) , but Saruman could have the same plans as Galadriel or Elrond. Once owning the ring, taking it summoning a GOOD enough army to be able to overthrow Sauron. As for me, I think his arrogance wouldn't have done that. He saw himself able to wield the ring, and would have tried to take on Sauron, of course utterly failing. But that's my opinion.

I think Saruman is being rather underestimated in this thread. While there is
considerable doubt about Elrond, Galadriel, Aragorn, et. al. defeating Sauron
using the Ring, Gandalf and Saruman were Maiar on, I believe, an equivalent
level with Sauron and could therefore have been essentially his equal, once
they would ignore the ban on their using their powers openly in Middle-earth.

True Saruman & Gandalf would be basically the same rank as Sauron. Saruman would possibly be capable of "mastering" the Ring... BUT, who's Will was the Ring made of?

The reason Sauron needed the Ring was to be made whole again. He had somewhat seperated his essence, dividing his power. In a sense the Ring had a Will of its own - that of its other self, the Dark Lord's.

No matter to whom the Ring ended up with... even with the powerful Wizard such as Saruman, I still think the Ring would have its way.

After all it was in Elrond's Counsel, it had been said that the ONLY way to destroy Sauron was to destroy the Ring (or made undone).

Doesn't Tolkien explicitly say that no-one else on Middle-earth could have mastered the Ring? (I'm really sorry I can't actually be helpful by providing a quote. Perhaps an owner of the Letters can help us out here?)

Sure thing Eomer, this is a letter by Tolkien written to Eileen Elgar. I think it supports your idea.

That letter suggests to me that, in circumstances where Saruman held the Ring, Sauron would probably prevail over him in a straight fight between the two. I had it in mind when I said:


Saruman's only chance would be to muster a sufficiently large force to hold off Sauron's armies. That would require an alliance with the Free Peoples but, by that stage, Gandalf had already spread word of his treachery. As I said, they would surely only have feigned alliance with him to gain a chance of seizing the Ring.

I couldn't agree with you more SpM, Saruman one on one would not beable to destroy Sauron.

I think an important question would be, if Rohan and Gondor found out about Saruman's "ring claiming" would they too rush to fight Saruman? Not necessarily joining forces with Mordor, because I believe that would end bad. But, would the forces of good beable to rush to Orthanc, destroy Saruman before he becomes too strong, and then fend off Mordor? Or would that be too risky? Would Mordor try to wipe out anyone in it's path on the road to Isengard? There are plenty of questions, and plenty of possibilities.

I'm confused about the end of that part of the letter (thanks for providing Boromir). Is it saying that Gandalf would have been able to destroy Sauron? But how if the Ring survived?

I'm sort of confused myself about the ending but here's my interpretation of it.
This I take as a hypothetical, "what if?" Just saying, imagine Gandalf having possession of the ring, taking on Sauron, one on one. Then it goes to "balance" the two sides, sort of like at the beginning of a boxing match or football game, where they weigh in on the advantages/disadvantages, strengths/weakness.
This would be in favor of Sauron, he has the ring's "true allegiance" he's the "master" of it, not Gandalf.

Then it's the advantages that Gandalf has.
Now we go back to that "what if."
Just saying, if Gandalf won, Sauron would have met the same fate as he would have if the ring was destroyed (don't ask me why about that, lol, I'm not totally sure why).

This just says, with Gandalf as the victor, Sauron destroyed, in the end the power of the ring would have endured and as it says "becomes the master." Which I take of as, becoming the "master" over Gandalf. I just basically broke the paragraph into sentences, plus that's only my interpretation, I would love to see how others interpret that last paragraph.

Well, back in the day....
 

....Boromir, no-one took up the challenge!

Look back at Tolkien's letter a few posts ago. The last paragraph does confuse me: why would Sauron be destroyed and sundered from the Ring forever if he lost a fight to the Ring-wielding Gandalf? I had thought the survival of the Ring meant the survival of Sauron.

Any thoughts?

Win-win for Sauron?
 

Yes.


I think that you are right to an extent. The spirit of Sauron (or at least that part of it which he imbued in the Ring) would continue to exist and would exhibit itself in the actions of a Ring-mastered Gandalf. However, what Tolkien seems to be saying is that, even though the Ring would master Gandalf, Sauron himself would by then have been sundered from it and would therefore no longer be capable of assuming a physical manifestation in Arda.

Nevertheless, in this light, the Ring might be seen as a "win-win" option for Sauron. As long as no one else claims it and defeats him with it, then he reamins secure. If someone does claim it and is able to defeat him with it (and only Gandalf is portrayed as having any reasonable chance of doing so), he might be "destroyed", but his works will live on. The new Ringbearer becomes, in effect, his heir. And he doesn't have to worry about anyone destroying it, because the only place where this can be done is in his backyard and it is impossible for anyone willingly to do so anyway. Of course, he didn't bargain for Eru changing the rules ... ;)

Eomer, sounds like you are looking for an answer that Tolkien wrote in a letter to Mr. Milton Waldman...
So, we have the Ring's power is still "rapport" or "bound" to Sauron. However, if someone comes along (say Gandalf) and is strong enough to challenge him with it (one on one) and is able to beat him that bond would be broken. The Ring's powers would no longer be bound to Sauron, therefor he would be destroyed for good. However, as SpM says, Sauron's works would live on, as the new Ring-Bearer would turn up to be a new dark lord. If you're still confused check out this thread

Well, well, thanking you kindly, my friends. That does indeed explain it. :)