The Power of Isengard - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 10-05-2004, 01:18 PM

Between Rohan, Gondor and Mordor? Surely Rohan and Gondor would take this chance to recover their strength and take on the distracted Sauron, whilst he was busy trying to get inside Isengard. The War would be long and extremely bloody, and Sauron would win in the end.

Boromir88 · 10-05-2004, 02:54 PM

Interesting question Tuor, As Eomer said, a definate alliance between Rohan and Gondor. I do think if Saruman was able to make a great force so fast, Mordor would have allied with Saruman, or would have just stayed out of it and wait for the perfect moment to make it's strike. Here is my true feeling on if Saruman got the ring though...

Saruman if he could figure out a way to wield the ring and get armies to flock to Isengard, then yes, Saruman could overthrow Sauron. Yes, Saruman studied for years in ring-lore, he even tried to make his own ring, which as of right now, it seems that ring was a failure. I'm still not convinced Saruman would know how to do that, his arrogance could get into the way. We have to remember, just because someone has the ring doesn't make them all powerful, unstoppable, first Saruman must know how to use the Ring, for example commanding Sauron's armies, commanding the Nazgul, if Saruman could be able to do that, then we are getting somewhere.

rutslegolas · 10-06-2004, 01:09 AM

Indeed yes ,but I do not think after getting the ring Saruman would be so arrogant as to lauch an attack on the Dark Lord ,I think he would bid his time ( as he said to Gandalf ) ,he would wait till the Dark Lord launches his attack on Gondor and Roahn and then when his armies are scattered ,he will attack the Dark Lord .

But he will have to get armies which he does not have ,from where he will get these I do not know??

**The Saucepan Man** · 10-06-2004, 03:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rutslegolas

Indeed yes ,but I do not think after getting the ring Saruman would be so arrogant as to lauch an attack on the Dark Lord ,I think he would bid his time

I agree that this would have been Saruman's best strategy. But he is unlikely to have had much choice in the matter. As soon as Sauron became aware that Saruman had the Ring, surely he would attack him with everything he could.

So, the most likely outcome would be a conflict between Saruman's forces and those of Sauron. The latter would probably prevail, and then it would come down to a straight fight between Saruman and Sauron for the Ring. It is conceivable that Saruman would have a chance, but the smart money would probably be on the Red Eye rather than the White Hand.

The interesting question is what do the good guys do while all this is going on? An alliance with either would surely be out of the question since, whichever way the conflict went, it would spell disater for the Free Peoples. Or perhaps their best hope would be to feign an alliance and hope that someone (Gandalf?) could get sufficiently close to the final confrontation between Saruman and Sauron so as to be able to seize the Ring and use it to defeat the victor while he was in a weakened state. But then what happens ...?

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 10-06-2004, 04:51 AM

Denethor or (in later years) Boromir would go to claim the Ring for themselves when the armies of Sauron and Saruman had been weakened. Gandalf, Elrond, etc. would realise this folly but would they be able to do anything about it?

**The Saucepan Man** · 10-06-2004, 05:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

Denethor or (in later years) Boromir would go to claim the Ring for themselves when the armies of Sauron and Saruman had been weakened. Gandalf, Elrond, etc. would realise this folly but would they be able to do anything about it?

Interesting point, but a big factor in Denethor's despair was what he saw (via the Palantir of Minas Tirith) as Sauron's swift and inevitable victory over Gondor. With the immediate threat removed and Sauron less devoted to influencing him, might Denethor's undeniable wisdom have caused him to listen to the counsels of the Wise? But then again, would he have been prepared to yield to Aragorn's claim to the throne? It seems unlikely ...

Zebedee · 10-06-2004, 07:29 PM

Sauron and Saruman would surely fight, but Sauruman most likely would wait for Sauron to attack Isengard. To reach Isengard, Sauron would have to fight through Gondor and Rohan, so Saruman would have a little more time. Perhaps Rohan would even have fought for him had Gandalf not freed Theoden from Wormtongue.

Fordim Hedgethistle · 10-07-2004, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

So, the most likely outcome would be a conflict between Saruman's forces and those of Sauron. . . The interesting question is what do the good guys do while all this is going on?

Answer: die.

The geograpraphy of Middle-Earth is not kind to the forces of good: for Saruman and Sauron to fight each other, either one or both of them would first have to go through Minas Tirith and Rohan. By the time S & S were done with one another, there wouldn't be much left of the forces of Good!

Tuor of Gondolin · 10-07-2004, 12:03 PM

Not necessarily. There is one crucial favorable geographical feature for the good
guys, the White Mountains. Assuming a fairly evenly divided bad guys (with
Saruman holding the ring but unsure of how to effectively control it) Rohan can
withdraw to mountain strongholds and across the Isen, and Gondor to South Gondor. If they beat off the corsairs there could even be effective coordination to the west between Gondor and Rohan, and Mordor forces would be
stretched between defending Mordor, threatening the good guys and attacking
Saruman. It could be a long, nasty war of attrition- especially if there was some
peripheral Lorien intervention and Saruman/Sauron fighting spread to the fringes
of Fangorn and the ents felt it necessary to intervene.

Thalionyulma · 10-07-2004, 06:03 PM

Hmmmm, interesting thought....

If Saruman got hold of the Ring, yes, Sauron would waste no time in trying to take it from him. But then, isn't the Ring's main objective is to get back to its Master? How can one overthrow Sauron if the object of the Power was formed from his will? The more powerful the Ring's wielder, the greater the corruption.

Galadriel sensed this and was able to overcome the Ring's temptation.

But the original question was... "What would have Saruman done?"

In my humble opinion.... in light of what the Ring is capable of doing, Saruman would probably have forced his will among the people and try to "overthrow" Sauron. But in the process he would have become a dictator, becoming a shadow of the Dark Lord. And when Saruman, thinking he was in control, would eventually succumb to Sauron's will. He would be in a similar situation as Denethor with the Palantiri. Sauron letting him have his way (or so it may seem), letting him see what the Dark Lord wanted him to see... but feeding him with lies until he was totally corrupted.

And the final conclusion? If the Ring had fallen into Saruman's hand... it would have found its way straight to Sauron.

10-05-2004, 01:18 PM	#1
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	Between Rohan, Gondor and Mordor? Surely Rohan and Gondor would take this chance to recover their strength and take on the distracted Sauron, whilst he was busy trying to get inside Isengard. The War would be long and extremely bloody, and Sauron would win in the end. __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

10-06-2004, 01:09 AM	#3
rutslegolas Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: In Elven Lands of India Posts: 533	Indeed yes ,but I do not think after getting the ring Saruman would be so arrogant as to lauch an attack on the Dark Lord ,I think he would bid his time ( as he said to Gandalf ) ,he would wait till the Dark Lord launches his attack on Gondor and Roahn and then when his armies are scattered ,he will attack the Dark Lord . But he will have to get armies which he does not have ,from where he will get these I do not know?? __________________ If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with the bull - The Phantom.

10-06-2004, 04:51 AM	#5
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	Denethor or (in later years) Boromir would go to claim the Ring for themselves when the armies of Sauron and Saruman had been weakened. Gandalf, Elrond, etc. would realise this folly but would they be able to do anything about it? __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

10-06-2004, 07:29 PM	#7
Zebedee Haunting Spirit Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Lafayette, LA Posts: 61	Sauron and Saruman would surely fight, but Sauruman most likely would wait for Sauron to attack Isengard. To reach Isengard, Sauron would have to fight through Gondor and Rohan, so Saruman would have a little more time. Perhaps Rohan would even have fought for him had Gandalf not freed Theoden from Wormtongue. __________________ If at first you don't succed, then skydiving isn't for you.

10-07-2004, 12:03 PM	#9
Tuor of Gondolin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Pennsylvania, WtR, passed Sarn Gebir: Above the rapids (1239 miles) BtR, passed Black Rider Stopping Place (31 miles) Posts: 1,548	Not necessarily. There is one crucial favorable geographical feature for the good guys, the White Mountains. Assuming a fairly evenly divided bad guys (with Saruman holding the ring but unsure of how to effectively control it) Rohan can withdraw to mountain strongholds and across the Isen, and Gondor to South Gondor. If they beat off the corsairs there could even be effective coordination to the west between Gondor and Rohan, and Mordor forces would be stretched between defending Mordor, threatening the good guys and attacking Saruman. It could be a long, nasty war of attrition- especially if there was some peripheral Lorien intervention and Saruman/Sauron fighting spread to the fringes of Fangorn and the ents felt it necessary to intervene. __________________ Aure Entuluva! Last edited by Tuor of Gondolin; 10-07-2004 at 12:06 PM.

10-05-2004, 02:54 PM	#2
Boromir88 Laconic Loreman Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: USA Posts: 7,521	Interesting question Tuor, As Eomer said, a definate alliance between Rohan and Gondor. I do think if Saruman was able to make a great force so fast, Mordor would have allied with Saruman, or would have just stayed out of it and wait for the perfect moment to make it's strike. Here is my true feeling on if Saruman got the ring though... Saruman if he could figure out a way to wield the ring and get armies to flock to Isengard, then yes, Saruman could overthrow Sauron. Yes, Saruman studied for years in ring-lore, he even tried to make his own ring, which as of right now, it seems that ring was a failure. I'm still not convinced Saruman would know how to do that, his arrogance could get into the way. We have to remember, just because someone has the ring doesn't make them all powerful, unstoppable, first Saruman must know how to use the Ring, for example commanding Sauron's armies, commanding the Nazgul, if Saruman could be able to do that, then we are getting somewhere.

10-07-2004, 06:03 PM	#10
Thalionyulma Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: across the sea Posts: 295	Hmmmm, interesting thought.... If Saruman got hold of the Ring, yes, Sauron would waste no time in trying to take it from him. But then, isn't the Ring's main objective is to get back to its Master? How can one overthrow Sauron if the object of the Power was formed from his will? The more powerful the Ring's wielder, the greater the corruption. Galadriel sensed this and was able to overcome the Ring's temptation. But the original question was... "What would have Saruman done?" In my humble opinion.... in light of what the Ring is capable of doing, Saruman would probably have forced his will among the people and try to "overthrow" Sauron. But in the process he would have become a dictator, becoming a shadow of the Dark Lord. And when Saruman, thinking he was in control, would eventually succumb to Sauron's will. He would be in a similar situation as Denethor with the Palantiri. Sauron letting him have his way (or so it may seem), letting him see what the Dark Lord wanted him to see... but feeding him with lies until he was totally corrupted. And the final conclusion? If the Ring had fallen into Saruman's hand... it would have found its way straight to Sauron.