Faramir's age.

[Fingolfin II]

Boromir88 you are absolutely correct about Gandalf making Imrahil in charge of the city in the place of Faramir, but he wasn't initiated into the Stewardship and wasn't in charge of the city, so I don't think he qualifies as a Ruling Steward. However, it is a matter of opinion, and yes, you are right again when you say that I got that titbit about Denethor from the Appendices.

Thanks for that excerpt from your other post Nil.

[Belegorn]

I know this was a post from a while ago and I don't think there are any rules against bringing up an old topic.

Anyways I want to give my opinion on this. In Gondor the life span is basically all but regressed back to normal levels even in the people oh higher Numenorean descent. Faramir makes a statement that, "if the Rohirrim are grown in some ways more like to us, enhanced in arts and gentleness, we too have become more like to them, and can scarce claim any longer the title High. We are become Middle Men, of the Twilight, but with memory of other things." [TTT, p. 339] Here Faramir makes clear that even the nobility are but Middle Men.

Now there is one thing that we should look at as regards to purer houses in Gondor. Even though their lifespans are basically that of other men they do not necessarily age as other men do as they can remain vital longer. Gandalf says, "the span of their lives had waned to little more than that of other men, and those among them who passed the tale of five score years with vigour were grown few, save in some houses of purer blood." [RotK, p. 149] So here we have the notion that although the span of the lives of these purer families may have decreased to about the same as other men, the number of those years spent in vitality is certainly longer. In other words they would be like the Kings of the Numenoreans who died still vital without holding onto life. Those who did would grew sterile.

Faramir may have been in some way related to the house of the Kings, but even if that were so, we do know that the 7th Steward was the last man in Gondor to live 150 years. So even if there were still relatives of the King in Gondor even their life spans were much diminished. However, the line of Kings would always have the longer lifespan compared to other people of Numenor. In the beginning when they lived to 400 years or more, other Numenoreans lived to around 200 years. I think that the diminishment of lifespans had much to do with the way of life of the Dunedain. Those closer to an Elvish sort of life were longer lived than those who rebelled. Like in the end of Numenor you had the Faithful and the King's Men. The Kings life spans were diminishing rapidly. The last king felt death at his doors when he was around 220 years of age. Elendil who was related to the house of the Kings was over 300 years old when he was slain by Sauron. The father of the last king of Numenor died before he was 200! I would say the gift most effected by Rebellion and the life was lifespan. Other gifts it seems did not take that big of a hit. As we see Denethor was like a wizard to the Hobbits, Faramir too. They had great powers normal men did not possess and one would think like much of the noble houses still in existance they would remain vital deep into their life. Of course, Denethor was said to age prematurely, and this may have been due to his struggles with Sauron in the Palantir.

Also I believe if you take a look at it the Stewards tended to be longer lived than the Princes of Dol Amroth. I think Faramir and his father, like Aragorn, were probably among the greatest men of their day, but I would say we could apply some of their attributes to the purer people in Gondor. For example, of Faramir, Eowen "knew, for she was bred among men of war, that here was one whom no Rider of the Mark would outmatch in battle." [RotK, p. 265] Or Pippin thinking, "how closely he resembled his brother Boromir... Here was one with an air of high nobility such as Aragorn at times revealed, less high perhaps, yet also less incalculable and remote: one of the Kings of Men born into a later time, but touched with wisdom and sadness of the Elder Race." [RotK, p. 91] Obviously Faramir and Denethor were more the exception even among the purer Gondorians as they were more like to the High Men than the Middle Men which Faramir claimed the people of Gondor were basically become. Gandalf also says how this blood of Westernesse runs truer in father and son which does not necessarily account for any extreme lifespan, "He is not as other men of this time [they are High Men], Pippin, and whatever be his descent from father to son, by some chance the blood of Westernesse runs nearly true in him; as it does in his other son, Faramir, and yet did not in Boromir whom he loved best. He has long sight. He can perceive, if he bends his will thither, much of what is passing in the minds of men, even of those that dwell far off. It is difficult to deceieve him and dangerous to try." [RotK, p. 33] This is just an account of some of the power of Denethor and his son Faramir. Also add to this the vitality they will take with them into old age and their physical abilties as Eowyn saw in Faramir. Faramir and Denethor are the cream of the crop in Gondor until Aragorn arrives.

[Ardent]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

... In Gondor the life span is basically all but regressed back to normal levels even in the people oh higher Numenorean descent. Faramir makes a statement that,
"if the Rohirrim are grown in some ways more like to us, enhanced in arts and gentleness, we too have become more like to them, and can scarce claim any longer the title High. We are become Middle Men, of the Twilight, but with memory of other things." [TTT, p. 339]
Here Faramir makes clear that even the nobility are but Middle Men. ....

There is more to Faramir's explanation:

"...For as the Rohirrim do, we now love war and valour as things good in themselves, both a sport and an end; and though we still hold that a warrior should have more skills and knowledge than only the craft of weapons and slaying, we esteem a warrior, nonetheless, above men of other crafts. Such is the need of our days. So even was my brother..."

I find it relevant that the decline from the 'high' state is associated with loss of finer crafts. This includes the loss of written and oral tradition because Boromir and Faramir did not know what Isildur's Bane might be. One feature of High and Middle Men is the refinement in their armour and weaponry, while the Men of Darkness have relatively crude and fewer artefacts.
In real world terms it has always been much the same. Neanderthal burials contain necklaces where stones have carved grooves used to tie them onto a thread or thong, while other contemporary hominids were drilling holes to put the thread through. It may not sound much but it indicates both a higher level of technology and a greater attention to detail, the beginning of a process of improvement which has continued since (though some things have been lost and not always re-discovered along the way).

I think the point of Faramir's life-span is that in a society where people support one another (enough to promote creativity, instead of focussing solely on 'hand-to-mouth' survival) the poor are more likely to live longer and prosperity increase as a whole. I do not think it coincidence that the High Elves' society resembles a monastic order: orderly gardens, chanting and song, The Wise in leadership... Neither is it surprising that outsiders view the Lady of the Golden Wood with suspicion, or that the likes of Sam think them 'magical'.

One feature which distinguishes Boromir and Faramir is their attitudes towards listening and comanding. Stepping over the line between noble man and war leader Boromir did not listen to Elrond's warnings about the Ring and tried to demand it be given to him. Faramir passed his test because he listened to the warning of his heart. He clearly knew there is more to nobility than the virtues of warfare alone.
This is applicable in the real world, in the world of myth and parable it is exagerated.

[Bêthberry]

If death is supposed to be a gift to the race of man, then why is longevity such an important issue? Why are the "high" supposed to live longer and why is a decrease in life span a sign of weakness or decline?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

If death is supposed to be a gift to the race of man, then why is longevity such an important issue? Why are the "high" supposed to live longer and why is a decrease in life span a sign of weakness or decline?

Good question!

It seems to me the obsession with living long is associated with the Númenórean-descendants, and a lingering pall of the fear of death that led to the fall of Númenor itself. It was a matter of pride to many of them, and it led to further trouble in their exile in Middle-earth. The idea of mixing their blood with the Northmen, leading to a decreased lifespan, was one of the primary causes of the Kin-strife in Gondor that nearly destroyed them.

Overall, I think the importance of the increased lifespan was more pronounced with people of the sort of Denethor, not so much Faramir and Aragorn.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

If death is supposed to be a gift to the race of man, then why is longevity such an important issue? Why are the "high" supposed to live longer and why is a decrease in life span a sign of weakness or decline?

To your last enquiry in Appendix A it is said, "their years lessened as their fear of death grew" [p. 354] The decline in their lifespans was in conjunction with their continued rejection of the fate of Men. This is basically the shadow that fell upon Numenor as the Edain, "began to long for the immortality of the Eldar... in the days of Tar-Minastir, eleventh King... the thought of death darkened the hearts of the people." [RotK, p. 353]

The people were not accepting their fates. They grew resentful of the choice of Elros to be a King of Men rather than of the Elves. They thougt they should be given a choice too to decide their fates and many of them wanted to be immortal as the Elves were. Keep in mind how far this dread of death went; they began sacrificing people to Melkor in the hope that they could be released from death when Sauron had the ear of Ar-Pharazon. This afflicted even the Faithful so that even their lifespans diminished yet not nearly as fast as the Kings. In the Akallbeth the general feeling on the island is described as, "the desire of everlasting life, to escape from death and the ending of delight, grew strong upon them;" [Sil., p. 325]

As regards the fate of men an envoy came to admonish the people of Numenor, "this we hold to be true, that your home is not here [in Arda, that is, which is why the Elves referred to Men as visitors], neither in the land of Aman nor anywhere within the Circles of the World. And the Doom of Men, that they should depart, was at first a gift of Iluvatar" [p. 327] The King Atanamir was not hearing this and did not agree with this and he "lived to a great age, clinging to his life beyond the end of all joy; and he was the first of the Numenoreans to do this" [p. 328]

Longevity of a life 3 times that of the span of average Men for the general Dunedain was a gift. This was a gift that did not contradict their natures, but they wanted more, they wanted to be as Elves, even though they nearly were, "they grew wise and glorious, and in all things more like to the Firstborn than any other of the kindreds of Men" [Sil, p. 321] The distinction between the two, the High Men and Elves was barely perceptible. So why are the High Men supposed to live longer? It was one of the gifts given to them like the island of Numenor, "As a reward for their sufferings in the cause against Morgoth" [RotK, p. 351] in the First Age. They were Elf-friends. Longevity should not have been an issue for them since they were mortal and could not hope for immortality, though some assume maybe Tuor was granted immortality as Luthien was granted mortality.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

It was one of the gifts given to them like the island of Numenor, "As a reward for their sufferings in the cause against Morgoth" [RotK, p. 351] in the First Age.

I think this is a rather pertinent example. It would seem to me that the long lives of the Dúnedain were both a reward and a responsibility - so that these Men would have a long time to attain wisdom and therefore see to their inheritance, the governance of Arda, with justice and righteousness, but also so that they had the time to appreciate the fruits of their labours. Yet not endlessly, so that they avoided the weariness of the "terrestrial longevity" which was the burden of the Elves and the incarnate Ainur. For instance when Gandalf is talking to himself and says it is "a habit of the old", Aragorn responds: "I am no longer young even in the reckoning of Men of the Ancient Houses. Will you not open your mind more clearly to me?" (LR p.485) This longevity was seemingly an assistance to their spiritual mission, as it were, for it lent them the experience and time needed to fulfil the responsibilities of their age. On the other side, it's said when Aragorn and Arwen are married that "the tale of their long waiting and labours was come to fulfilment." (LR p.951) A long life was not an unenviable thing; it was a reward for labours. But an endless life was not such a blessing: "Thus you escape, and leave the world, and are not bound to it, in hope or in weariness." (The Silmarillion .265)
I would offer, therefore, that a long life was meant as an opportunity and a responsibility to fulfil one stage of Eru's plan for Men in the greatest possible way, before passing beyond Eä to experience the next stage of the spiritual journey ordained for Men by Eru: that which occurred after the death of the body. I would consider that to be a possibility for why a long life would still be considered valuable even if mortality was regarded as a gift. It effectively allowed a Dúnadan to have the best of both worlds.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

the long lives of the Dúnedain were both a reward and a responsibility - so that these Men would have a long time to attain wisdom and therefore see to their inheritance, the governance of Arda, with justice and righteousness, but also so that they had the time to appreciate the fruits of their labours. Yet not endlessly, so that they avoided the weariness of the "terrestrial longevity" which was the burden of the Elves and the incarnate Ainur.

I read somewhere, maybe a note, maybe not, how they were granted long life enough not to sort of break their natures, because their bodies could not handle such things in excess of that they were given and also their Doom. I agree with you that they should have no share in the burden of the Doom of the Elves when they had their own Doom to embrace.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

If death is supposed to be a gift to the race of man, then why is longevity such an important issue? Why are the "high" supposed to live longer and why is a decrease in life span a sign of weakness or decline?

On this, see the Athrabeth (HME X). Basically, the idea was that before the Fall precipitated by Morgoth and/or Sauron "offstge" in the Elder Days, all Men were not immortal but given spans of centuries and the right to depart of their own volition, as was the case with the earlier Kings of Numenor: they had been restored to nearly the "state of grace" of Eden.

Note that in that tale, like Numenor later, their seduction by the Dark led to a Temple inhabited by the dark God-king who demanded human sacrifice.

-------------------

As to Faramir, it could also be thought that there was a special grace or blessedness over the whole of Middle-earth associated with the fall of Sauron and his departure from Ea as an active presence, as seen in the "Great Year of Plenty" in 1420. EDIT: Eomer also lived remarkably long for one of the Rohirrim, reaching 102.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Oh- as to "last Ruling Steward:- in "The Steward and the King," Faramir offers Aragorn his white rod and says "the last Steward of Gondor begs leave to surrender his office," and A. gives it back saying "that office is not ended" etc etc.

I would suggest that Faramir was, albeit briefly, the last Ruling Steward for six weeks from Denethor's death until Elessar's coronation, and only under a Dol Amroth regency for three days; and that that rule was more than notional after the Captains marched to Mordor, even if he still was staying in the HofH. After all, somebody had to be in charge, and it wasn't Imrahil; and I would venture that during that period March 18 - May 1 the white banner flew from the Tower.

[Faramir Jones]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Oh- as to "last Ruling Steward:- in "The Steward and the King," Faramir offers Aragorn his white rod and says "the last Steward of Gondor begs leave to surrender his office," and A. gives it back saying "that office is not ended" etc etc.

I would suggest that Faramir was, albeit briefly, the last Ruling Steward for six weeks from Denethor's death until Elessar's coronation, and only under a Dol Amroth regency for three days; and that that rule was more than notional after the Captains marched to Mordor, even if he still was staying in the HofH. After all, somebody had to be in charge, and it wasn't Imrahil; and I would venture that during that period March 18 - May 1 the white banner flew from the Tower.

You're right, William. In an early draft of Appendix A of The Lord of the Rings, which did not make it into the published version, Faramir is twice called ‘the last Ruling Steward’. (J.R.R.Tolkien, The History of Middle Earth: 12. The Peoples of Middle Earth, (London: HarperCollins Publishers, 1997), pp. 206-207.

Even in the text of the published version of LotR, it's obvious that Faramir was the last Ruling Steward. In ‘The Steward and the King’, the Warden told Éowyn, ‘the Lord Faramir is by right the Steward of the City’. (LotR, Book 6, Chapter V, p. 938) Later, Faramir being healed, ‘took upon him his authority and the Stewardship, although it was only for a little while, and his duty was to prepare for one who should replace him’. (Ibid., p. 942) (My emphasis) On the morning of 1st May, the day of King Elessar’s coronation, the standard of the Stewards ‘was raised over Gondor for the last time'. (Ibid., p. 944)

[Sarumian]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

If death is supposed to be a gift to the race of man, then why is longevity such an important issue? Why are the "high" supposed to live longer and why is a decrease in life span a sign of weakness or decline?

It seems, both life and death are gifts of Eru. And both of these gifts require a lot to accept them as they are. I totally agree with Belegorn on the matter.

[Sarumian]

In regard of Faramir I tend to think that his long lifespan was determined by the combination of his ancestry and his personal achievements. I think, everyone who found strength to reject The Ring was somehow rewarded for that in some way. Moreover, both king Elessar and Faramir were Gandalf's disciples, they became the wielders of his wisdom (and Gandalf is the Spirit of Wisdom) in the world where magic was waning.

I always felt that Tolkien said too little about Faramir's role after the king was restored. We know, he was made a Prince of Ithilien and ruled Gondor in the king's absence. But I thought as a keeper of Gandalf's legacy and lore of Gondor, Faramir should have become a great teacher and established the Academy of Ithilien, where he taught - something the king would have never been able to do as kingship is too demanding business. Honestly, I expected something like this from our Professor, who said that of all characters Faramir is the closest to the author.

[Belegorn]

Yea, the Appendix does have Tolkien stating that Denethor, "was the last of the Ruling Stewards" but in the text it would seem it could be otherwise.

[Faramir Jones]

Originally Posted by Sarumian

I always felt that Tolkien said too little about Faramir's role after the king was restored. We know, he was made a Prince of Ithilien and ruled Gondor in the king's absence. But I thought as a keeper of Gandalf's legacy and lore of Gondor, Faramir should have become a great teacher and established the Academy of Ithilien, where he taught - something the king would have never been able to do as kingship is too demanding business. Honestly, I expected something like this from our Professor, who said that of all characters Faramir is the closest to the author.

I beg to differ with you here, Sarumian. Tolkien was quite clear about what Faramir did after Elessar was crowned, in one of his letters, which contained comments on a lost criticism concerning Faramir and Eowyn, c. 1963:

Also to be Prince of Ithilien, the greatest noble after Dol Amroth in the revived Númenórean state of Gondor, soon to be of imperial power and prestige, was not a 'market-garden job' as you term it. Until much had been done by the restored King, the P. of Ithilien would be the resident march-warden of Gondor, in its main eastward outpost - and also would have many duties in rehabilitating the lost territory, and clearing it of outlaws and orc-remnants, not to speak of the dreadful vale of Minas Ithil (Morgul). I did not, naturally, go into details about the way in which Aragorn, as King of Gondor, would govern the realm. But it was clear that there was much fighting, and in the early years of A.'s reign expeditions against enemies in the East. The chief commanders, under the King, would be Faramir and Imrahil; and one of these would normally be a military commander at home in the King's absence. A Númenórean king was monarch, with the power of unquestioned decision in debate; but he governed the realm with the frame of ancient law, of which he was administrator (and interpreter) but not the maker. In all debatable matters of importance domestic, or external, however, even Denethor had a Council, and at least listened to what the Lords of the Fiefs and the Captains of the Forces had to say. Aragorn re-established the Great Council of Gondor, and in that Faramir, who remained by inheritance the Steward (or representative of the King during his absence abroad, or sickness, or between his death and the accession of his heir) would [be] the chief counsellor. (The Letters of J.R.R.Tolkien, (London: HarperCollins Publishers, 1995), Letter 244, pp. 323-4.)