Faramir's age.

[Bêthberry]

If death is supposed to be a gift to the race of man, then why is longevity such an important issue? Why are the "high" supposed to live longer and why is a decrease in life span a sign of weakness or decline?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

If death is supposed to be a gift to the race of man, then why is longevity such an important issue? Why are the "high" supposed to live longer and why is a decrease in life span a sign of weakness or decline?

Good question!

It seems to me the obsession with living long is associated with the Númenórean-descendants, and a lingering pall of the fear of death that led to the fall of Númenor itself. It was a matter of pride to many of them, and it led to further trouble in their exile in Middle-earth. The idea of mixing their blood with the Northmen, leading to a decreased lifespan, was one of the primary causes of the Kin-strife in Gondor that nearly destroyed them.

Overall, I think the importance of the increased lifespan was more pronounced with people of the sort of Denethor, not so much Faramir and Aragorn.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

If death is supposed to be a gift to the race of man, then why is longevity such an important issue? Why are the "high" supposed to live longer and why is a decrease in life span a sign of weakness or decline?

To your last enquiry in Appendix A it is said, "their years lessened as their fear of death grew" [p. 354] The decline in their lifespans was in conjunction with their continued rejection of the fate of Men. This is basically the shadow that fell upon Numenor as the Edain, "began to long for the immortality of the Eldar... in the days of Tar-Minastir, eleventh King... the thought of death darkened the hearts of the people." [RotK, p. 353]

The people were not accepting their fates. They grew resentful of the choice of Elros to be a King of Men rather than of the Elves. They thougt they should be given a choice too to decide their fates and many of them wanted to be immortal as the Elves were. Keep in mind how far this dread of death went; they began sacrificing people to Melkor in the hope that they could be released from death when Sauron had the ear of Ar-Pharazon. This afflicted even the Faithful so that even their lifespans diminished yet not nearly as fast as the Kings. In the Akallbeth the general feeling on the island is described as, "the desire of everlasting life, to escape from death and the ending of delight, grew strong upon them;" [Sil., p. 325]

As regards the fate of men an envoy came to admonish the people of Numenor, "this we hold to be true, that your home is not here [in Arda, that is, which is why the Elves referred to Men as visitors], neither in the land of Aman nor anywhere within the Circles of the World. And the Doom of Men, that they should depart, was at first a gift of Iluvatar" [p. 327] The King Atanamir was not hearing this and did not agree with this and he "lived to a great age, clinging to his life beyond the end of all joy; and he was the first of the Numenoreans to do this" [p. 328]

Longevity of a life 3 times that of the span of average Men for the general Dunedain was a gift. This was a gift that did not contradict their natures, but they wanted more, they wanted to be as Elves, even though they nearly were, "they grew wise and glorious, and in all things more like to the Firstborn than any other of the kindreds of Men" [Sil, p. 321] The distinction between the two, the High Men and Elves was barely perceptible. So why are the High Men supposed to live longer? It was one of the gifts given to them like the island of Numenor, "As a reward for their sufferings in the cause against Morgoth" [RotK, p. 351] in the First Age. They were Elf-friends. Longevity should not have been an issue for them since they were mortal and could not hope for immortality, though some assume maybe Tuor was granted immortality as Luthien was granted mortality.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

It was one of the gifts given to them like the island of Numenor, "As a reward for their sufferings in the cause against Morgoth" [RotK, p. 351] in the First Age.

I think this is a rather pertinent example. It would seem to me that the long lives of the Dúnedain were both a reward and a responsibility - so that these Men would have a long time to attain wisdom and therefore see to their inheritance, the governance of Arda, with justice and righteousness, but also so that they had the time to appreciate the fruits of their labours. Yet not endlessly, so that they avoided the weariness of the "terrestrial longevity" which was the burden of the Elves and the incarnate Ainur. For instance when Gandalf is talking to himself and says it is "a habit of the old", Aragorn responds: "I am no longer young even in the reckoning of Men of the Ancient Houses. Will you not open your mind more clearly to me?" (LR p.485) This longevity was seemingly an assistance to their spiritual mission, as it were, for it lent them the experience and time needed to fulfil the responsibilities of their age. On the other side, it's said when Aragorn and Arwen are married that "the tale of their long waiting and labours was come to fulfilment." (LR p.951) A long life was not an unenviable thing; it was a reward for labours. But an endless life was not such a blessing: "Thus you escape, and leave the world, and are not bound to it, in hope or in weariness." (The Silmarillion .265)
I would offer, therefore, that a long life was meant as an opportunity and a responsibility to fulfil one stage of Eru's plan for Men in the greatest possible way, before passing beyond Eä to experience the next stage of the spiritual journey ordained for Men by Eru: that which occurred after the death of the body. I would consider that to be a possibility for why a long life would still be considered valuable even if mortality was regarded as a gift. It effectively allowed a Dúnadan to have the best of both worlds.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

the long lives of the Dúnedain were both a reward and a responsibility - so that these Men would have a long time to attain wisdom and therefore see to their inheritance, the governance of Arda, with justice and righteousness, but also so that they had the time to appreciate the fruits of their labours. Yet not endlessly, so that they avoided the weariness of the "terrestrial longevity" which was the burden of the Elves and the incarnate Ainur.

I read somewhere, maybe a note, maybe not, how they were granted long life enough not to sort of break their natures, because their bodies could not handle such things in excess of that they were given and also their Doom. I agree with you that they should have no share in the burden of the Doom of the Elves when they had their own Doom to embrace.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

If death is supposed to be a gift to the race of man, then why is longevity such an important issue? Why are the "high" supposed to live longer and why is a decrease in life span a sign of weakness or decline?

On this, see the Athrabeth (HME X). Basically, the idea was that before the Fall precipitated by Morgoth and/or Sauron "offstge" in the Elder Days, all Men were not immortal but given spans of centuries and the right to depart of their own volition, as was the case with the earlier Kings of Numenor: they had been restored to nearly the "state of grace" of Eden.

Note that in that tale, like Numenor later, their seduction by the Dark led to a Temple inhabited by the dark God-king who demanded human sacrifice.

-------------------

As to Faramir, it could also be thought that there was a special grace or blessedness over the whole of Middle-earth associated with the fall of Sauron and his departure from Ea as an active presence, as seen in the "Great Year of Plenty" in 1420. EDIT: Eomer also lived remarkably long for one of the Rohirrim, reaching 102.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Oh- as to "last Ruling Steward:- in "The Steward and the King," Faramir offers Aragorn his white rod and says "the last Steward of Gondor begs leave to surrender his office," and A. gives it back saying "that office is not ended" etc etc.

I would suggest that Faramir was, albeit briefly, the last Ruling Steward for six weeks from Denethor's death until Elessar's coronation, and only under a Dol Amroth regency for three days; and that that rule was more than notional after the Captains marched to Mordor, even if he still was staying in the HofH. After all, somebody had to be in charge, and it wasn't Imrahil; and I would venture that during that period March 18 - May 1 the white banner flew from the Tower.

[Faramir Jones]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Oh- as to "last Ruling Steward:- in "The Steward and the King," Faramir offers Aragorn his white rod and says "the last Steward of Gondor begs leave to surrender his office," and A. gives it back saying "that office is not ended" etc etc.

I would suggest that Faramir was, albeit briefly, the last Ruling Steward for six weeks from Denethor's death until Elessar's coronation, and only under a Dol Amroth regency for three days; and that that rule was more than notional after the Captains marched to Mordor, even if he still was staying in the HofH. After all, somebody had to be in charge, and it wasn't Imrahil; and I would venture that during that period March 18 - May 1 the white banner flew from the Tower.

You're right, William. In an early draft of Appendix A of The Lord of the Rings, which did not make it into the published version, Faramir is twice called ‘the last Ruling Steward’. (J.R.R.Tolkien, The History of Middle Earth: 12. The Peoples of Middle Earth, (London: HarperCollins Publishers, 1997), pp. 206-207.

Even in the text of the published version of LotR, it's obvious that Faramir was the last Ruling Steward. In ‘The Steward and the King’, the Warden told Éowyn, ‘the Lord Faramir is by right the Steward of the City’. (LotR, Book 6, Chapter V, p. 938) Later, Faramir being healed, ‘took upon him his authority and the Stewardship, although it was only for a little while, and his duty was to prepare for one who should replace him’. (Ibid., p. 942) (My emphasis) On the morning of 1st May, the day of King Elessar’s coronation, the standard of the Stewards ‘was raised over Gondor for the last time'. (Ibid., p. 944)

[William Cloud Hicklin]

On the morning of 1st May, the day of King Elessar’s coronation, the standard of the Stewards ‘was raised over Gondor for the last time'. (Ibid., p. 944)

That's an interesting phrase, and one wonders if Tolkien thought it through completely; since we know that Elessar went several times to war in Harad and Rhun, and it appears that Gondor in this sort of thing defaults to historical European practice, it would seem to me to be the case that the Tree, Crown and Stars accompanied the King when he went forth, just as the British Royal Standard flies from the place the Queen currently is, and nowhere else; and that during his absence the Standard flown from the White Tower would be that of whomever was governing the realm in the King's absence- in other words, the Steward, fulfilling the same ancient role the office had before the disappearance of Earnur. (cf the Rohirric office of Underking).

[Sarumian]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

If death is supposed to be a gift to the race of man, then why is longevity such an important issue? Why are the "high" supposed to live longer and why is a decrease in life span a sign of weakness or decline?

It seems, both life and death are gifts of Eru. And both of these gifts require a lot to accept them as they are. I totally agree with Belegorn on the matter.

[Sarumian]

In regard of Faramir I tend to think that his long lifespan was determined by the combination of his ancestry and his personal achievements. I think, everyone who found strength to reject The Ring was somehow rewarded for that in some way. Moreover, both king Elessar and Faramir were Gandalf's disciples, they became the wielders of his wisdom (and Gandalf is the Spirit of Wisdom) in the world where magic was waning.

I always felt that Tolkien said too little about Faramir's role after the king was restored. We know, he was made a Prince of Ithilien and ruled Gondor in the king's absence. But I thought as a keeper of Gandalf's legacy and lore of Gondor, Faramir should have become a great teacher and established the Academy of Ithilien, where he taught - something the king would have never been able to do as kingship is too demanding business. Honestly, I expected something like this from our Professor, who said that of all characters Faramir is the closest to the author.

[Belegorn]

Yea, the Appendix does have Tolkien stating that Denethor, "was the last of the Ruling Stewards" but in the text it would seem it could be otherwise.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

Yea, the Appendix does have Tolkien stating that Denethor, "was the last of the Ruling Stewards" but in the text it would seem it could be otherwise.

Well, Denethor was the last Steward who Ruled de facto but Faramir was the last Ruling Steward de jure. Legally Aragorn didn't take over until his coronation, but in practice he was The Boss from the time he stormed ashore at the Harlond while Faramir was still in a coma. When Aragorn heals him that evening his first words are "My lord, you called me. I come. What does the king command?" Similarly, Imrahil declares "The Lord Aragorn I hold to be my liege-lord, whether he claim it or no."

(I always thought it was a trifle coy for Aragorn to enter the city anonymously and make a big deal of making no "open claim," despite having blatantly and unmistakenly declared his claim when he broke the Royal Standard from his flagship)

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

(I always thought it was a trifle coy for Aragorn to enter the city anonymously and make a big deal of making no "open claim," despite having blatantly and unmistakenly declared his claim when he broke the Royal Standard from his flagship)

I'm not sure why he'd do that either. He did also fulfill a belief about the healing hands of the Kings in the Houses of Healing so that could have been an aid to any claim. IMO most of Gondor was basically made up of Middle Men now. Few houses were like that of the Steward's and for Aragorn to come in there as he was a man of lengthy years looking like he was Faramir's age or some such the people would jump at him being their king. He'd be like the living incarnation of stories of the long-lived kings of Gondor. Obviously the higher ups had a say in accepting the king and maybe if Denethor still lived it would be a debate like Arvedui had. Denethor was described as one like nearest kin to Aragorn and he and his house or people who were of like mind would not be much impressed with Aragorn as they were pretty impressive themselves though not as long-lived.

[Faramir Jones]

Originally Posted by Sarumian

I always felt that Tolkien said too little about Faramir's role after the king was restored. We know, he was made a Prince of Ithilien and ruled Gondor in the king's absence. But I thought as a keeper of Gandalf's legacy and lore of Gondor, Faramir should have become a great teacher and established the Academy of Ithilien, where he taught - something the king would have never been able to do as kingship is too demanding business. Honestly, I expected something like this from our Professor, who said that of all characters Faramir is the closest to the author.

I beg to differ with you here, Sarumian. Tolkien was quite clear about what Faramir did after Elessar was crowned, in one of his letters, which contained comments on a lost criticism concerning Faramir and Eowyn, c. 1963:

Also to be Prince of Ithilien, the greatest noble after Dol Amroth in the revived Númenórean state of Gondor, soon to be of imperial power and prestige, was not a 'market-garden job' as you term it. Until much had been done by the restored King, the P. of Ithilien would be the resident march-warden of Gondor, in its main eastward outpost - and also would have many duties in rehabilitating the lost territory, and clearing it of outlaws and orc-remnants, not to speak of the dreadful vale of Minas Ithil (Morgul). I did not, naturally, go into details about the way in which Aragorn, as King of Gondor, would govern the realm. But it was clear that there was much fighting, and in the early years of A.'s reign expeditions against enemies in the East. The chief commanders, under the King, would be Faramir and Imrahil; and one of these would normally be a military commander at home in the King's absence. A Númenórean king was monarch, with the power of unquestioned decision in debate; but he governed the realm with the frame of ancient law, of which he was administrator (and interpreter) but not the maker. In all debatable matters of importance domestic, or external, however, even Denethor had a Council, and at least listened to what the Lords of the Fiefs and the Captains of the Forces had to say. Aragorn re-established the Great Council of Gondor, and in that Faramir, who remained by inheritance the Steward (or representative of the King during his absence abroad, or sickness, or between his death and the accession of his heir) would [be] the chief counsellor. (The Letters of J.R.R.Tolkien, (London: HarperCollins Publishers, 1995), Letter 244, pp. 323-4.)

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

I beg to differ with you here, Sarumian. Tolkien was quite clear about what Faramir did after Elessar was crowned, in one of his letters, which contained comments on a lost criticism concerning Faramir and Eowyn, c. 1963:

Also to be Prince of Ithilien, the greatest noble after Dol Amroth in the revived Númenórean state of Gondor, soon to be of imperial power and prestige, was not a 'market-garden job' as you term it. Until much had been done by the restored King, the P. of Ithilien would be the resident march-warden of Gondor, in its main eastward outpost - and also would have many duties in rehabilitating the lost territory, and clearing it of outlaws and orc-remnants, not to speak of the dreadful vale of Minas Ithil (Morgul). I did not, naturally, go into details about the way in which Aragorn, as King of Gondor, would govern the realm. But it was clear that there was much fighting, and in the early years of A.'s reign expeditions against enemies in the East. The chief commanders, under the King, would be Faramir and Imrahil; and one of these would normally be a military commander at home in the King's absence. A Númenórean king was monarch, with the power of unquestioned decision in debate; but he governed the realm with the frame of ancient law, of which he was administrator (and interpreter) but not the maker. In all debatable matters of importance domestic, or external, however, even Denethor had a Council, and at least listened to what the Lords of the Fiefs and the Captains of the Forces had to say. Aragorn re-established the Great Council of Gondor, and in that Faramir, who remained by inheritance the Steward (or representative of the King during his absence abroad, or sickness, or between his death and the accession of his heir) would [be] the chief counsellor. (The Letters of J.R.R.Tolkien, (London: HarperCollins Publishers, 1995), Letter 244, pp. 323-4.)

Excellent point about Faramir's role during Aragorn's reign.