Sport in Middle-Earth

[Bêthberry]

Oh, Estelyn, what if! Rohirrim cheerleaders. *shudders* Or would that be more a Dunlending thing? Can't imagine the elves getting all that worked up.

[Mithalwen]

Well I subscribe to the Orwellian distinction between patriotism and nationalism...and the few occasions where I have been actively ashamed of being British/English have been related to the behaviour of the followers of football..... I loathe football, I couldn't care less if England won in fact I prefer it if they lose because then people shut up about it.. ...... as if it really matters if one group of English overpaid morons can kick a ball in a net more often than a bunch of foreign overpaid morons ..... I couldn't even escape the &%*%$ world cup on a longhaul flight ......... And I don't think hating football makes me less entitled to my passport.......

The purpose of a banner was to be a rallying point of troops in battle.... the example you give is at a post battle celebration so I don't see a great distinction

[The Saucepan Man]

The White Tree device was not created simply as a banner for battle. It was a symbol of Numenorean identity, just as flags in our world are symbols of national identity. If being proud of my national identity makes me "nationalistic", then so be it. But I cetainly do not subscribe to the negative connotations of that word.

Aragorn was proud to be a Numenorean, and proud to lead his people. He displayed the White Tree device with pride. Yet he was far from "nationalistic" in the negative sense.

Personally, I like football. But that is only a very small part of what I am talking about. And I too am ashamed of the behaviour of some who follow it, but they are in the minority and the national flag is not (and should not be allowed to be) their exclusive preserve.

[Osse]

I, am Australian, and though I am very proud of my roots, my history and even my flag, I find no reason to plaster it all over the place, in fact, if anything, I find it degrading to the banner to be put up everywhere. The flag is often put up in the most demeaning of places. During my recent stint of living in the states, i was almost sickened by the places they plastered their flag ; on the side of toilets, off garden fences, frayed and tattered, or even singed by the BBQ!!! I too, enjoy sport, and if at an international match, you'll see me plastered in the green and gold paint, waving the southern cross with the best of them. However, if i was unable to attend, the last thing I would do was put a flag on my ruddy car! It seems over the top, almost non patriotic, demeaning to the colours, and and even a bit xenophobic.

Imagine, every farmer in rohan placing a little horse-clad, green flag on the side of the cart he uses to move manure...


GUYS! Now that my two bob is on the much-scrubbed kitchen table of the discussion, I think it's time we went back to sport in Middle Earth.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I think it's time we went back to sport in Middle Earth.

Indeed! If this thread is to stay open, the posts must be on topic.

[The Saucepan Man]

However, if i was unable to attend, the last thing I would do was put a flag on my ruddy car! It seems over the top, almost non patriotic, demeaning to the colours, and and even a bit xenophobic.

Well, that's me told.

I think it's time we went back to sport in Middle Earth.

Yes, I suspected that my desperate attempts to keep my posts vaguely on topic by including reference to the White Tree would fool no one, least of all you Esty.

I agree that we should move back to the topic at hand before I am cast any further in the role of nationalist xenophobe.

So, in an effort to do just that:

... in The Hobbit there's a whole list of "quiet games of the aiming and throwing sort"that Hobbits play: quoits, dart-throwing, shooting at the wind, bowls, and ninepins. Now I have no idea what half of those are, but still, they're nice Hobbit-games.

Quoits is throwing hoops over pegs, isn't it? Bowls involves rolling balls in an effort to get nearest to the target jack, while ninepins is simply skittles by another name. No idea what "shooting the wind" is, though. They are all very much the sort of games that one would associate with Hobbits, being games that are tradionally played in quiet country pubs. I can imagine Hobbits liking nothing better than a nice evening of beer and skittles.

I can see Hobbits playing cricket too, since it fits in with the idyllic rural feel of the Shire (village greens and all that) and the Hobbit talents of "aiming and throwing", although I seem to recall (perhaps from his Letters) that Tolkien himself was not overly fond of the game.

But the references to football (and golf) were probably put in by the modern translator of Bilbo's There and Back Again.

Fair point with regard to the football references, but the circumstances in which golf is mentioned define what kind of game it is. So, whatever it was called, Hobbits must have had a game which involved using clubs to hit balls into holes. Unless they only played it when Goblin heads were available ...

[Selmo]

Saucepan Man,

"Shooting at the wind" should be "shooting at the wand", the wand being a narrow, upright target in archery.

[Garulf]

More evidence that wrestling was a sport in Middle-Earth: Tulkas the Valar was a wrestler. Plus he was the most fun-loving Valar of them all which leads me to believe that he probably wrestled for fun and not just in war.

I always pictured the hobbits playing rugby and cricket and not just because they seem British. On second thought rugby might be a bit too violent for hobbits, but cricket definitely works.

[Mithalwen]

There is a reason for this...( I cannot link)..... cf "where is everyone from"