Sport in Middle-Earth
 

I mentioned this on the Lupercalia thread, but it was lost amid the chaos I had wrought. I thought it might prove interesting:

Apart from the well-known Creation of Golf myth in The Hobbit, Orc-chasing and hunting wild kine, can anyone think of a reference to any kind of sport in the Middle-Earth books?

Not that I'm complaining: I can't stand exercise, but it's a matter that's been occupying my so-called thoughts of late.

This is off the top of my head. I'll have to check later to see if I can find the reference. Isn't there a reference somewhere (I think in LotR) to something flying like a football?? I may be hallucinating this, but I don't think so.

sharon, the 7th age hobbit

I don't think that there's much reference to games and sport in LotR because of the times: the Dark Lord is rising, threatening to consume all of Middle Earth, the free peoples are scrambling to accrue armies and throw up defences, the attention of the wise is bent on the East, where the last hope is journeying deep into enemy territory on a "fool's mission". The focus is on the monumental and pivotal. All in all, not the time to play a friendly game of darts on a Sunday afternoon.

I imagine that there may be references in the HoME books, but as I haven't read most of those yet, I'm afraid that I can't help much there.

It's easy enough to picture the Hobbits playing games. What sports did Bilbo provide at his eleventy-first birthday?

[ August 12, 2002: Message edited by: The Silver-shod Muse ]

The orcs were interested to know if the hobbits were good for "sport." However, I have a feeling that's not the kind of "sport" that you meant.

When Pippin was talking with Bergil they mentioned wrestling as if it was practiced as sport.

In the Hobbit there was also mention of "quiet" games that Bilbo would play.

[ August 12, 2002: Message edited by: Kuruharan ]

Cruel sport of the Easterlings, per UT: Less chilling, but still predictably warlike, are the sports of the Edain: Yet another UT reference implies Elvish sport. There may be more specific details elsewhere which I can’t rightly remember at the moment.

Interesting. I have never given thought to the sports of ME. Of course, the children in ME don't just work all day, they must have games that they play. But I can't remember any mention of sports from what I have read...but I don't have the best memory either, so I may have missed something...

I knew it! Cowes Week and the Boat Race represent a survival of Numenorean culture into the present day. Perhaps even Henley Regatta, although that might be stretching a point.

I still find it quite interesting that there's so little reference to team games. I accept the Muse's observation that times are a little fraught in LoTR, but does this apply throughout the Legendarium as a whole? Mind you, it scarcely matters: the absence of sporting discussions in Tolkien's writing is one of the things that I like about it. Perhaps he shared my views on the subject.

I've always suspected that the Dwarves had a lively game of rugby with Azog's head in Azanulbizar before they skewered it and put it on display - a match that was discreetly left out of the account in Appendix A-III. Those Dwarves always struck me as ruggers, what with their raucous songs and surly temperaments and flagons of ale and suchlike. But who's to say?

Since the hobbits had evolved from a hunting/gathering "wandering" people, to a more agrarian society, I image that many of their sports probably involved what once were survival tactics.

I imagine that hunting was done more for sport in the Shire of Frodo's age, since they apparently raised plenty of livestock. And except for the odd Bounder, I would guess that most hobbits practiced archery more as a sport then as a weapon of war. Same with quarterstaffs, horseracing, keeping hounds, etc. Hmmmm, I wonder if hobbits kept hawks?

I also found a website that said football originated in the Middle Ages, when it was called "Gameball". Basically you just tossed the ball in the air and whatever team got it to their side won, no holds barred.

Ninepins might be a possibility in the Shire, and maybe a form of croquet. Other than that, I can't think of too many organized, team sports, as we think of sports these days, would have been played in the Shire, or anywhere else in Middle Earth.

GASP!!!! We've been found out!!! All that careful editing of the sources and bribing of the historians for nothing!!!!

You can't get away with re-writing history, you know. Someone will always find out.

Now you come to mention it, Underhill, rugby's a perfect sport for Dwarves; although it would involve them removing their chain mail. I can imagine the glory days: Erebor v. Iron Hills. Five Orc-heads crushed in the first half. Spectators forced to hunt down some more before play could continue.

Ah yes Dwarvish Rugby, a real sport. None of this American football padding nonsense, if you broke a few bones well that was just hard luck.
I can imagine the Rohirrim playing a sport similar to polo.
I wonder if some of the more vicious Easterlings would have played iomanaíocht (sp?) field hockey with an enemies head for a ball.

Some cultures of the Central Asian steppes had a game similar to polo in which the head of a calf or sheep was used for a ball after it was slaughtered. Strange...

I could just picture the Elves playing soccer, or football, as it is rightfully called by the rest of normal society (silly Americans). Hmmm. Pulling jerseys, faking injuries, using the old 'scissors', and being thrown out on bad calls, while rabid fans are busy overturning the horses in the parking lot. Ok, maybe not. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
Seriously, they must have at least had archery contests. For certain, Legolas kept some trophies in his closet. Right next to his collection of Barbara Streisand movies.

[ August 14, 2002: Message edited by: Lush ]

Hobbit croquet, complete with flamingos - wait, wrong book.

I think we don't see much of sports because of Frodo's quiet, bookish nature. If the book had followed Pippin on the other hand...

I see the Shire Hobbits playing various games of skill, that old-fashioned hoop-rolling... and cricket. Ah yes! Of course! None of this soccer stuff, these Hobbits really are more the elegant-if-odd cricket-types. Think of it, it's perfect: miasmic rules that only a fanatic can follow, plenty of time out to do something other than think about the game, no clock or schedule or clue when it was going to end, or begin for that matter... the genteel attitude. Ideal for that upper-crusty Hobbiton lad.

Across the Brandywine they'd have soccer, naturally. Or football, as they so crudely call it. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Maril

[ August 15, 2002: Message edited by: Marileangorifurnimaluim ]

Oh really now. Isn't there a reference somewhere to dwarf-tossing? Or am I getting my J's confused? Legolas showed a steady leg at shield boarding, but that was of course the movie.

If my memory serves me correctly (it doesn't always ;)) , in the opening section of The Hobbit, where the author is describing hobbits, several sports and games are mentioned.

Hobbits are described as excelling at games that involve aiming, such as archery and darts. Bilbo later shows his aiming skills when he tackles the spiders in Mirkwood.

You are quite right Selmo (although it's found in "Flies and Spiders"), in The Hobbit there's a whole list of "quiet games of the aiming and throwing sort"that Hobbits play: quoits, dart-throwing, shooting at the wind, bowls, and ninepins. Now I have no idea what half of those are, but still, they're nice Hobbit-games.

The Moria orcs might've played "Pin the wings on the Balrog". :D (well, I think it's funny...)

I'm in the process of making up a hand game for the little girls of Minas Tirith to play, though I doubt that counts as a sport.

Well, Deagol was a great fishing enthusiast...before his untimely death...(wonders if fishing is considered a Middle-earth sport).

:D :D :D

Perhaps just the wrong edition. I think hobbits played eggplant-croquet with emus.

Plus-fours, plus fores
 

I was always enamoured with the tale of the invention of golf; it is fun when Mr T (ever seen them in the same room?) loosens his belt a little and lets his fairly dry wit shine through.

Nine-irons for mortal men...
 

I couldn't agree more. Giving the most unmartial of games such a warlike and gruesome origin is a stroke of comic genius. The obvious implication is that the traditional golfing outfit of ludicrous patterned sweaters, chequered plus-fours and a jaunty bag of a hat are, in fact, descended from those brightly coloured clothes so beloved of hobbits.

In rereading the Prologue, I found a reference to hobbits and hunting: So hunting as a sport was not practiced among hobbits - I wonder, does that tell us that JRRT didn't approve of the English aristocracy's sport hunting? His attitude toward the use of weapons both for provision of food and for fighting is that of necessity - only when needed.

I remember one part of the Hobbit, when the Bilbo and Co. were crossing the Misty Mts., and they see and hear the Stone-Giants, it says something about how the Stone-Giants could have picked Bilbo up and kicked him like a foot-ball . Maybe it was just a way of saying what the Giants could've done, but I think it may mean that Hobbits had football...

TH: But the references to football (and golf) were probably put in by the modern translator of Bilbo's There and Back Again.


'The Disaster of the Gladden Fields':
Appendix A: Note to letter #154: 'Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age': I have wondered what 'wrestled' and 'thrown down' means in this passage. We have corresponding passages in Letter #131 and LR, 'The Council of Elrond': Gil-galad and Elendil slew Sauron, and they had weapons, Aiglos and Narsil, so they most likely used them to slay him.

I know that 'to wrestle' can also mean 'to fight' (probably by using weapons in this case), and 'to throw down' can also probably mean 'to overthrow' for example a king from his throne, so maybe that is the case here?


Here are other examples of the verb 'to wrestle' in Tolkien's works:

The Silmarillion: This sounds like Tulkas liked the actual sport of wrestling. Here, Tulkas is probably using his skills as a wrestler. I think Finrod did wrestle here and not 'fight', as he had no weapons. It seems logical that people turn to actual wrestling if they do not happen to have any weapons.

LR: Here, Denethor is definitely fighting a battle of the minds with Sauron. Pippin is definitely talking about the actual sport of wrestling here.


Here is an example of how CT in his commentary uses 'to wrestle' in terms of 'fighting':

Morgoth's Ring: Here are examples of 'to throw down' in Tolkien's works:

'Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth': LR: It is pretty clear that the first two examples refer to the overthrowing of a Lord from his throne, but the two about Barad-dûr are less clear; can you overthrow a building?

Though I do not think that Elves had any wrestling competitions. But Elves are definitely hardy creatures (perhaps especially the Ñoldor) and they would wrestle if that is their only choice or if they think it is of any use, like Finrod Felagund so valiantly did in the pits of Sauron.

I would venture to suggest (and unlikely as it may seem thinking of the pictures of the elderly pipesmoking academic) Tolkien was a more than competent schoolboy rugger player (first XV if i remember rightly) so I think it almost certain that it wolu have been a flabby rugby football..... not an Association one ;)

I am sure a dwarf scrum would be fearsome but might be lacking speed in the back five - I think you really would want elves there,:D In a middle earth team I would be thinking in terms of a Dwarvish front row, Men of Numenor would be great in the second row and I am sure that Elladan and Elrohir would make a fine pair of Flankers..... with maybe a Ranger of the north at No 8 - Hoewver the Free peoples might struggle against the Dark forces XV, given their access to cavetrolls, Ologs & Uruks ...... a formidable pack but lacking in wit and intelligence in the line out and set pieces?


It has to be said that almost all of middle earth seems to have an inexplicable aversion to my favourite sport of swimming..... it almost always seem to end in tears doesn't it?... drowning, losing/finding rings of power,getting shot by orcs, nearly losing your barrel, falling into enchanted sleep........

Yes indeed, the Team of Mordor's scrum would certainly consist of:

2 mountain trolls as props, and olog-hai warrior as hooker, uruk hai second row, two nice meaty uruks for flankers, (the bigger one on the blindside) and finally another olog hai at lock...

They'd have a nice little goblin playing scrum half, and some generally tall, fast uruks through through the backs...

That dwarven scrum would be completely hammered!! It'd be like Australia vs England the last week :P hahaha

(Then again, perhaps Mordor would only win if the Free Peoples had five of their best players out??)

<Definately not and Aussie (hehe)>

Osse

Twist that knife why don't you? Normal service has been resumed in British sport after that blinder of a Rugby world cup final ..... :( Although I hate soccer with a passion so my grief was quite controllable when that was over...especially as it meant those tacky flags dissappeared from cars..... ....... Hmm... those cavetroll props may force the recruitment of Beornings......pity Ents are not more hasty and bendable they would be great in the line-out....... I must think about half backs ....... Mr Wilkinson is cherubic and accurate enough to be a hobbit but rather too athletic and tall ..... hmmm well must hope that Ent-draught is not a prohibited substance ...... as for scrum-half.... well my gold standard is Nick Farr-Jones ..... now if he were in Middle Earth ...... who would he be? Eorl the Young maybe :p

Still may have to play Gandalf to even things up.... in the power stakes ... or draft in a few Valar - Tulkas and Orome at centre?

Tacky?
 

Mine's still up. :p :D

Nothing wrong with displaying banners. After all, if Aragorn hadn't displayed his at the Pelennor, it might have been a different story ...

Oh The Horror
 

What?! This horrid disease as spread to the UK as well? I thought it was an exclusively American illness! :rolleyes: :eek:

*coughs*

Sweden would have won Euro, if they hadn't played Holland...

Okay, back on topic!

Dear me, if it's this bad here, imagine what it would be like in Middle-earth? Soccer (pardon me, football!) riots involving the throwing of vegetables with the Hobbits, shooting of arrows with the Elves, and swinging of swords with the Men? Imagine what the Orcs would use...err, messy.

I don't know... i think most liverpool hooligans already resemble orcs... cept i think uruks look better in tophats! (don't ask and I wont' tell)

It would be a pretty cool sight to behold. A mob of angry hobbits racing around throwing apples at the orcs, who in turn are chasing after the Elves with beer bottles and rubbish bin lids, little do the orcs know, but they are about to be nutted from the dark alley by a raucus bunch of Dunedain weilding clubs!!


Sounds familiar....

OK - partly I found that the flags obscured sightlines thus making driving more dangerous, partly I found them a little agressive.... it is actually just sport not war...

It seemed to cross the line between patriotism and nationalism........

Plastic flags are inherently tacky. Especially when England is stencilled across them to prevent them being mistaken for the Finnish flag..... and how many people with them on their cars could put the Union flag the right way up?
Although I think the respect given to the flag in the US is a little OTT ... I felt it was disrespectful to write over it... use it for advertising ....... ugh.....

Disgusted of Tumladen Wells ;)

Banners depicting the emblems of realms are displayed in LotR in situations other than battle. From The Field of Cormallen:


And mounted upon Saucepan's car, red upon white, floated the cross of St George. :p ;)

I see nothing wrong in displaying my national flag as a symbol of my pride in my country and to show my support for my national team on sporting occasions (it is mounted on the car's aerial, thus presenting no driving hazard). Personally, I think that the cross of St George is an extremely attractive device and I am proud to fly it. And, if it has "nationalistic" connotations, then I am happy to reclaim it on behalf of all who take pride in their country, while maintaining admiration and respect for other nations. :cool:

With so much talk of banners and flags, isn't there a sport that involves banner waving? (Sorry, I don't know what it's called officially.) After this past weekend, I would send a few Greeks back to Middle-earth to help the more staid Gondorians practice... ;)

Oh, Estelyn, what if! Rohirrim cheerleaders. *shudders* Or would that be more a Dunlending thing? Can't imagine the elves getting all that worked up. :D

Well I subscribe to the Orwellian distinction between patriotism and nationalism...and the few occasions where I have been actively ashamed of being British/English have been related to the behaviour of the followers of football..... I loathe football, I couldn't care less if England won in fact I prefer it if they lose because then people shut up about it.. ...... as if it really matters if one group of English overpaid morons can kick a ball in a net more often than a bunch of foreign overpaid morons ..... I couldn't even escape the &%*%$ world cup on a longhaul flight ......... And I don't think hating football makes me less entitled to my passport.......

The purpose of a banner was to be a rallying point of troops in battle.... the example you give is at a post battle celebration so I don't see a great distinction

The White Tree device was not created simply as a banner for battle. It was a symbol of Numenorean identity, just as flags in our world are symbols of national identity. If being proud of my national identity makes me "nationalistic", then so be it. But I cetainly do not subscribe to the negative connotations of that word.

Aragorn was proud to be a Numenorean, and proud to lead his people. He displayed the White Tree device with pride. Yet he was far from "nationalistic" in the negative sense.

Personally, I like football. But that is only a very small part of what I am talking about. And I too am ashamed of the behaviour of some who follow it, but they are in the minority and the national flag is not (and should not be allowed to be) their exclusive preserve.

I, am Australian, and though I am very proud of my roots, my history and even my flag, I find no reason to plaster it all over the place, in fact, if anything, I find it degrading to the banner to be put up everywhere. The flag is often put up in the most demeaning of places. During my recent stint of living in the states, i was almost sickened by the places they plastered their flag ; on the side of toilets, off garden fences, frayed and tattered, or even singed by the BBQ!!! I too, enjoy sport, and if at an international match, you'll see me plastered in the green and gold paint, waving the southern cross with the best of them. However, if i was unable to attend, the last thing I would do was put a flag on my ruddy car! It seems over the top, almost non patriotic, demeaning to the colours, and and even a bit xenophobic.

Imagine, every farmer in rohan placing a little horse-clad, green flag on the side of the cart he uses to move manure...


GUYS! Now that my two bob is on the much-scrubbed kitchen table of the discussion, I think it's time we went back to sport in Middle Earth. :p :p

Indeed! If this thread is to stay open, the posts must be on topic.