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Old 06-27-2004, 04:23 PM   #1
Ardamir the Blessed
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TH:
Quote:
"This won't do at all!" said Thorin. "If we don't get blown off or drowned, or struck by lightning, we shall be picked up by some giant and kicked sky-high for a football."
Quote:
There was a muffled yelp inside, and a toe shot up and kicked the spider straight and hard. There was life in Bombur still. There was a noise like the kicking of a flabby football, and the enraged spider fell off the branch, only catching itself with its own thread just in time.
But the references to football (and golf) were probably put in by the modern translator of Bilbo's There and Back Again.


'The Disaster of the Gladden Fields':
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In their settlements on the shores of Middle-earth [the Númenóreans] acquired and bred horses, but used them little for riding, except in sport and pleasure.
Appendix A:
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His [Eärnur's] prowess was such that none in Gondor could stand against him in those weapon-sports in which he delighted, seeming rather a champion than a captain or king
Note to letter #154:
Quote:
The chief way in which Hobbits differ from experience is that they are not cruel, and have no blood-sports, and have by implication a feeling for 'wild creatures' that are not alas! very commonly found among the nearest contemporary parallels.
'Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age':
Quote:
But at the last the siege was so strait that Sauron himself came forth; and he wrestled with Gil-galad and Elendil, and they both were slain, and the sword of Elendil broke under him as he fell. But Sauron also was thrown down, and with the hilt-shard of Narsil Isildur cut the Ruling Ring from the hand of Sauron
I have wondered what 'wrestled' and 'thrown down' means in this passage. We have corresponding passages in Letter #131 and LR, 'The Council of Elrond':
Quote:
It ends with the overthrow of Sauron and destruction of the second visible incarnation of evil. But at a cost, and with one disastrous mistake. Gilgalad and Elendil are slain in the act of slaying Sauron. Isildur, Elendil's son, cuts the ring from Sauron's hand
Quote:
I [Elrond] beheld the last combat on the slopes of Orodruin, where Gil-galad died, and Elendil fell, and Narsil broke beneath him; but Sauron himself was overthrown, and Isildur cut the Ring from his hand with the hilt-shard of his father's sword
Gil-galad and Elendil slew Sauron, and they had weapons, Aiglos and Narsil, so they most likely used them to slay him.

I know that 'to wrestle' can also mean 'to fight' (probably by using weapons in this case), and 'to throw down' can also probably mean 'to overthrow' for example a king from his throne, so maybe that is the case here?


Here are other examples of the verb 'to wrestle' in Tolkien's works:

The Silmarillion:
Quote:
Greatest in strength and deeds of prowess is Tulkas, who is surnamed Astaldo, the Valiant. He came last to Arda, to aid the Valar in the first battles with Melkor. He delights in wrestling and in contests of strength; and he rides no steed, for he can outrun all things that go on feet, and he is tireless.
This sounds like Tulkas liked the actual sport of wrestling.
Quote:
Then Tulkas stood forth as champion of the Valar and wrestled with him [Melkor], and cast him upon his face; and he was bound with the chain Angainor that Aulë had wrought
Here, Tulkas is probably using his skills as a wrestler.
Quote:
But when the wolf came for Beren, Felagund put forth all his power, and burst his bonds; and he wrestled with the werewolf, and slew it with his hands and teeth; yet he himself was wounded to the death.
I think Finrod did wrestle here and not 'fight', as he had no weapons. It seems logical that people turn to actual wrestling if they do not happen to have any weapons.

LR:
Quote:
Some say that as he [Denethor] sits alone in his high chamber in the Tower at night, and bends his thought this way and that, he can read somewhat of the future; and that he will at times search even the mind of the Enemy, wrestling with him.
Here, Denethor is definitely fighting a battle of the minds with Sauron.
Quote:
‘Maybe you could, if I let you,’ said Pippin with a laugh. ‘And maybe I could do the same to you: we know some wrestling tricks in my little country.
Pippin is definitely talking about the actual sport of wrestling here.


Here is an example of how CT in his commentary uses 'to wrestle' in terms of 'fighting':

Morgoth's Ring:
Quote:
Doubt and lack of certain direction arc very strongly conveyed, as he [JRRT] wrestled with the intractable problems posed by the presence of the Sun in the sky under which the Elves awoke, which was lit only by the stars.
Here are examples of 'to throw down' in Tolkien's works:

'Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth':
Quote:
'More: even if Melkor (or the Morgoth that he has become) could in any way be thrown down or thrust from Arda, still his Shadow would remain, and the evil that he has wrought and sown as a seed would wax and multiply.
LR:
Quote:
Let me see: some five days ago now he [Sauron] would discover that we had thrown down Saruman and had taken the Stone.
Quote:
For, my lords, it may well prove that we ourselves shall perish utterly in a black battle far from the living lands; so that even if Barad-dûr be thrown down, we shall not live to see a new age.
Quote:
Sing now, ye people of the Tower of Anor,
for the Realm of Sauron is ended for ever,
and the Dark Tower is thrown down.
It is pretty clear that the first two examples refer to the overthrowing of a Lord from his throne, but the two about Barad-dûr are less clear; can you overthrow a building?

Though I do not think that Elves had any wrestling competitions. But Elves are definitely hardy creatures (perhaps especially the Ñoldor) and they would wrestle if that is their only choice or if they think it is of any use, like Finrod Felagund so valiantly did in the pits of Sauron.
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Old 07-02-2004, 01:07 PM   #2
Mithalwen
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I would venture to suggest (and unlikely as it may seem thinking of the pictures of the elderly pipesmoking academic) Tolkien was a more than competent schoolboy rugger player (first XV if i remember rightly) so I think it almost certain that it wolu have been a flabby rugby football..... not an Association one

I am sure a dwarf scrum would be fearsome but might be lacking speed in the back five - I think you really would want elves there, In a middle earth team I would be thinking in terms of a Dwarvish front row, Men of Numenor would be great in the second row and I am sure that Elladan and Elrohir would make a fine pair of Flankers..... with maybe a Ranger of the north at No 8 - Hoewver the Free peoples might struggle against the Dark forces XV, given their access to cavetrolls, Ologs & Uruks ...... a formidable pack but lacking in wit and intelligence in the line out and set pieces?


It has to be said that almost all of middle earth seems to have an inexplicable aversion to my favourite sport of swimming..... it almost always seem to end in tears doesn't it?... drowning, losing/finding rings of power,getting shot by orcs, nearly losing your barrel, falling into enchanted sleep........
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Old 07-02-2004, 06:25 PM   #3
Osse
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Yes indeed, the Team of Mordor's scrum would certainly consist of:

2 mountain trolls as props, and olog-hai warrior as hooker, uruk hai second row, two nice meaty uruks for flankers, (the bigger one on the blindside) and finally another olog hai at lock...

They'd have a nice little goblin playing scrum half, and some generally tall, fast uruks through through the backs...

That dwarven scrum would be completely hammered!! It'd be like Australia vs England the last week :P hahaha

(Then again, perhaps Mordor would only win if the Free Peoples had five of their best players out??)

<Definately not and Aussie (hehe)>

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Old 07-03-2004, 12:45 PM   #4
Mithalwen
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Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
Twist that knife why don't you? Normal service has been resumed in British sport after that blinder of a Rugby world cup final ..... Although I hate soccer with a passion so my grief was quite controllable when that was over...especially as it meant those tacky flags dissappeared from cars..... ....... Hmm... those cavetroll props may force the recruitment of Beornings......pity Ents are not more hasty and bendable they would be great in the line-out....... I must think about half backs ....... Mr Wilkinson is cherubic and accurate enough to be a hobbit but rather too athletic and tall ..... hmmm well must hope that Ent-draught is not a prohibited substance ...... as for scrum-half.... well my gold standard is Nick Farr-Jones ..... now if he were in Middle Earth ...... who would he be? Eorl the Young maybe

Still may have to play Gandalf to even things up.... in the power stakes ... or draft in a few Valar - Tulkas and Orome at centre?
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Old 07-04-2004, 07:38 PM   #5
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White Tree Tacky?

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especially as it meant those tacky flags dissappeared from cars.....
Mine's still up.

Nothing wrong with displaying banners. After all, if Aragorn hadn't displayed his at the Pelennor, it might have been a different story ...
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