Ulmo's Magic Car ?! - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

GollumsPrecious · 02-12-2002, 12:34 PM

Anybody who has read the Lost Tales Vol 1 will have come across this line in "The Coming Of The Valar"....

"Beyond Valinor I have never seen, or heard, save that of a surety there are the dark waters of the outer seas, that have no tides and they are very cool and thin, that no boat can sail upon their bosom or fish swim within their depths, save the enchanted fish of Ulmo and his magic car"

...Magic Car ?...I am assuming JR don't mean something like Herbie or Kit out of Knight Rider !!!...so what the 'eck was Ulmo's magic car ?

Paul.

Maeglin · 02-12-2002, 02:06 PM

I'm afraid I don't know because I'm reading that book right now but it sounds pretty wierd. [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

Does anyone know?

Thingol · 02-12-2002, 03:05 PM

maybe he meant carp, like the fish [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

***Sharkû*** · 02-12-2002, 03:13 PM

Etymology: Middle English carre, from Anglo-French, from Latin carra, plural of carrum, alteration of carrus, of Celtic origin; akin to Old Irish & Middle Welsh carr vehicle; akin to Latin currere to run
Date: 14th century

1 : a vehicle moving on wheels: as a archaic : CARRIAGE, CHARIOT
(from www.m-w.com)

That help?

Bruce MacCulloch · 02-12-2002, 04:32 PM

Hrm - I had in my mind an image resembling the Yellow Submarine.

Jjudvven · 02-12-2002, 04:42 PM

That is funny. I never noticed that.

02-12-2002, 07:38 PM

I would have to agree that car is probably just meaning vehicle in this context. And as he is basically the god of the deep water, I think he could pull something like a water vehicle off.

Aralaithiel · 02-12-2002, 08:38 PM

Somehow while reading this thread The Who's "Magic Bus" crept into my head! [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]
I concur with the dictionary definition provided by one of the posters on this thread (dang this Elven Amnesia!) regarding the origin and possible meaning of the use of "car".

Maeglin · 02-13-2002, 01:12 PM

The Sindarin word "car" means "house" but I don't think Ulmo was riding an house. Besides it's not really possible that Tolkien used a sindarin word in an english sentence so this verision is not really thinkable in any way so this reply is quite unnesessary. Right?

Aralaithiel · 02-13-2002, 03:32 PM

Say what?!?! [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img] Run that by me again, Maeglin.
My brain overflows with the effects of miruvor! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Maeglin · 02-14-2002, 12:51 PM

Well, what I thought was just that the Sindarin word "car" means "house". And what we discussed was, Ulmo riding a "car". But that doesn't make sence in any way so just ignore it. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Niphredil Baggins · 02-19-2002, 11:09 AM

I just read in an Irish fantasy book (can fetch the title if you like)something like this about Manannan Mac Lir, the Irish Sea-God: 'The sea was to Manannan like a flowery meadow that he drove on in his car.' So Tolkien's not the only one and the car seems to go on the surface here...

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh · 02-20-2002, 08:14 AM

There's a reference to "the cars of giants" in Moonfleet by J. Meade Faulkner as well. When I first read that I was about ten and I remember thinking: "They didn't have cars in eighteenth-century Dorset" or words to that effect.

Elven-Maiden · 02-20-2002, 12:36 PM

Wow! Words sure are incredible things aren't they. Their meanings keep changing, and we don't understand what half the people in the world are talking about.

Do you think there will ever come a time when Tolkien's books are as baffling to some as Shakespeare is to me? Will they ever have to come out with a "modern translation" of Tolkien's work?

Raefindel · 02-20-2002, 01:17 PM

it's times like these that we wish Tolkien still lived and we could ask him. Wouldn't it be cool if he could join in our discussions?

Bruce MacCulloch · 02-20-2002, 01:44 PM

Indeed it would be. That is why I try, as much as possible, when arguing a point or answering a question, to use the good Professor's own words. The next best thing to having him here in our discussions is to use the things he wrote in our discussions. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
That is one of the reasons you will very rarely see me writing in a thread having a as a topic something that Professor Tolkien didn't have much to say on. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ February 20, 2002: Message edited by: Bruce MacCulloch ]

02-12-2002, 12:34 PM	#1
GollumsPrecious Pile O'Bones Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: UK Posts: 21	Ulmo's Magic Car ?! Anybody who has read the Lost Tales Vol 1 will have come across this line in "The Coming Of The Valar".... "Beyond Valinor I have never seen, or heard, save that of a surety there are the dark waters of the outer seas, that have no tides and they are very cool and thin, that no boat can sail upon their bosom or fish swim within their depths, save the enchanted fish of Ulmo and his magic car" ...Magic Car ?...I am assuming JR don't mean something like Herbie or Kit out of Knight Rider !!!...so what the 'eck was Ulmo's magic car ? Paul. __________________ Ugluk u bagronk sha pushdug Saruman-glob bubhosh skai'...

02-12-2002, 02:06 PM	#2
Maeglin Wight Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Nan Elmoth Posts: 136	I'm afraid I don't know because I'm reading that book right now but it sounds pretty wierd. [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] Does anyone know? __________________ The fool speaks of what he knows. The wise knows what he speaks of.

02-12-2002, 03:05 PM	#3
Thingol Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Long Island, New York Posts: 259	maybe he meant carp, like the fish [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ Yet the lies that Melkor, the mighty and accursed, Morgoth Bauglir, the Power of Terror and of Hate, sowed in the hearts of Elves and Men are a seed that does not die and cannot be destroyed; and ever and anon it sprouts anew, and will bear dark fruit even unto the latest days.

02-12-2002, 04:32 PM	#5
Bruce MacCulloch Dead Man of Dunharrow Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 651	Hrm - I had in my mind an image resembling the Yellow Submarine. __________________ `A blunderbuss, was it?' said he, scratching his head. `I thought it was horseflies!'

02-12-2002, 04:42 PM	#6
Jjudvven Wight Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: The Land to the West Posts: 154	That is funny. I never noticed that. __________________ "I don't know all of you as well as I should like, and I like less than half of you, half as well as you deserve."

02-12-2002, 03:13 PM	#4
*Sharkû* Hungry Ghoul Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 1,719	Etymology: Middle English carre, from Anglo-French, from Latin carra, plural of carrum, alteration of carrus, of Celtic origin; akin to Old Irish & Middle Welsh carr vehicle; akin to Latin currere to run Date: 14th century 1 : a vehicle moving on wheels: as a archaic : CARRIAGE, CHARIOT (from www.m-w.com) That help?

02-12-2002, 07:38 PM	#7
questor Guest Posts: n/a	I would have to agree that car is probably just meaning vehicle in this context. And as he is basically the god of the deep water, I think he could pull something like a water vehicle off.

02-12-2002, 08:38 PM	#8
Aralaithiel Ghost Eldaran Queen Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A remote mountain in Valinor Posts: 353	Somehow while reading this thread The Who's "Magic Bus" crept into my head! [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] I concur with the dictionary definition provided by one of the posters on this thread (dang this Elven Amnesia!) regarding the origin and possible meaning of the use of "car". __________________ A lelyat, wen! (Quenya Elvish for "You go, girl!"

02-13-2002, 01:12 PM	#9
Maeglin Wight Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Nan Elmoth Posts: 136	The Sindarin word "car" means "house" but I don't think Ulmo was riding an house. Besides it's not really possible that Tolkien used a sindarin word in an english sentence so this verision is not really thinkable in any way so this reply is quite unnesessary. Right? __________________ The fool speaks of what he knows. The wise knows what he speaks of.

02-13-2002, 03:32 PM	#10
Aralaithiel Ghost Eldaran Queen Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A remote mountain in Valinor Posts: 353	Say what?!?! [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img] Run that by me again, Maeglin. My brain overflows with the effects of miruvor! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ A lelyat, wen! (Quenya Elvish for "You go, girl!"

02-14-2002, 12:51 PM	#11
Maeglin Wight Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Nan Elmoth Posts: 136	Well, what I thought was just that the Sindarin word "car" means "house". And what we discussed was, Ulmo riding a "car". But that doesn't make sence in any way so just ignore it. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ The fool speaks of what he knows. The wise knows what he speaks of.

02-19-2002, 11:09 AM	#12
Niphredil Baggins Wight Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Finland Posts: 118	I just read in an Irish fantasy book (can fetch the title if you like)something like this about Manannan Mac Lir, the Irish Sea-God: 'The sea was to Manannan like a flowery meadow that he drove on in his car.' So Tolkien's not the only one and the car seems to go on the surface here... __________________ Wistful, willful, wingless, fly!

02-20-2002, 08:14 AM	#13
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh Spectre of Decay Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Bar-en-Danwedh Posts: 2,178	There's a reference to "the cars of giants" in Moonfleet by J. Meade Faulkner as well. When I first read that I was about ten and I remember thinking: "They didn't have cars in eighteenth-century Dorset" or words to that effect. __________________ Man kenuva métim' andúne?

02-20-2002, 12:36 PM	#14
Elven-Maiden Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 297	Wow! Words sure are incredible things aren't they. Their meanings keep changing, and we don't understand what half the people in the world are talking about. Do you think there will ever come a time when Tolkien's books are as baffling to some as Shakespeare is to me? Will they ever have to come out with a "modern translation" of Tolkien's work? __________________ Tout ce qui est or ne brille pas, Tous ceux qui errent ne sont pas perdus. Mobilis in Mobile

02-20-2002, 01:17 PM	#15
Raefindel Sword of the Spirit Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Washington State Posts: 1,313	it's times like these that we wish Tolkien still lived and we could ask him. Wouldn't it be cool if he could join in our discussions? __________________ Blessed be the Lord my Strength, Who trained my hands for war and my fingers to fight. Psallm 144:1

02-20-2002, 01:44 PM	#16
Bruce MacCulloch Dead Man of Dunharrow Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 651	Indeed it would be. That is why I try, as much as possible, when arguing a point or answering a question, to use the good Professor's own words. The next best thing to having him here in our discussions is to use the things he wrote in our discussions. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] That is one of the reasons you will very rarely see me writing in a thread having a as a topic something that Professor Tolkien didn't have much to say on. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] [ February 20, 2002: Message edited by: Bruce MacCulloch ] __________________ `A blunderbuss, was it?' said he, scratching his head. `I thought it was horseflies!'