Timeline of the Great Rings

[Mithadan]

Bringing this back up to the top. Huinesoron's concise summary regarding the history of the Great Rings is useful and interesting particularly in light of the second season of Rings of Power. This summary provides a convenient basis for comparison showing where RoP followed and deviated from JRRT's writings (regardless of how you define "canon").

[Huinesoron]

I don't remember doing this at all, but I largely stand by it. Thankfully, Tolkien doesn't seem to have meandered on the Rings in later life the way he did with so much else!

In light of RoP's Meteor Man, one point might need highlighting: Appendix B doesn't quite say that the Istari landed in 1050 T.A. It says "the Istari or Wizards first appeared in Middle-earth. It was afterwards said they came out of the Far West...". A similar turn of phrase is used for the Nazgul in 2251 S.A.: "the Nazgul or Ringwraiths, slaves of the Nine Rings, first appear."

In the case of the Nazgul, I've always read it as "first come out into the open" - ie, Sauron didn't just grab nine Men who happened to be alive in 2251, he'd been slowly building up this force over 500 years. It is therefore possible by the text of Appendix B that the Istari were already in Middle-earth, but "undercover". Last Writings: The Five Wizards talks about how nobody except the three western wizards even knew the other two existed, so the Blue Dudes at least almost certainly didn't land at the Grey Havens.

But Gandalf definitely did. ^_^ Appendix B does say that Cirdan gave Narya to Gandalf when he landed at the Grey Havens, and that this was after Gil-Galad gave Vilya to Elrond. That doesn't mean it has to be 1050, but it can't be before the Last Alliance.

hS

[Arvegil145]

There is a peculiar 1:2:4 pattern to many things Dwarven related (i.e. 1 - Durin's Folk, 2 - Firebeards and Broadbeams, 4 - eastern Dwarves; 1 - Khazad-dum, 2 - Nogrod and Belegost, 4 - presumably other eastern mansions), and I'm about 60% certain that the two rings that Sauron captured before TA 2845 belonged to the leaders of the 2 westernmost clans, and that the 4 which were devoured by dragons belonged to the leaders of the 4 eastern clans.

I can't exactly prove it, but knowing Tolkien's sensibilities at least somewhat I'd say it isn't the most unreasonable assumption in the world.


EDIT: Also:

His words imply he knows the fate of the other six, suggesting either the Dwarves talk a lot, or several of them were held by the Longbeards.

I just have to point out that the Longbeards aren't really a "unique clan" in and of themselves (excepting Durin) - instead, it's a collection of some members of the other 6 clans that coalesced around Khazad-dum.

With that in mind, I imagine that practically everybody belonging to Durin's Folk had kinship with all other Dwarven clans, which could also imply regular or semi-regular contact. In fact, given how uniform Khuzdul is, I'd say it's all but certain.

[Arvegil145]

By the way:

3262 - Sauron taken captive to Numenor. [App.B] He seemingly leaves the One in Barad-dur. [Ak]

There is a letter (Letter 211, p. 279) where Tolkien outright states that Sauron had the Ring with him in Numenor:

He naturally had the One Ring, and so very soon dominated the minds and wills of most of the Númenóreans.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

There is a peculiar 1:2:4 pattern to many things Dwarven related (i.e. 1 - Durin's Folk, 2 - Firebeards and Broadbeams, 4 - eastern Dwarves; 1 - Khazad-dum, 2 - Nogrod and Belegost, 4 - presumably other eastern mansions), and I'm about 60% certain that the two rings that Sauron captured before TA 2845 belonged to the leaders of the 2 westernmost clans, and that the 4 which were devoured by dragons belonged to the leaders of the 4 eastern clans.

I can't exactly prove it, but knowing Tolkien's sensibilities at least somewhat I'd say it isn't the most unreasonable assumption in the world.

I just have to point out that the Longbeards aren't really a "unique clan" in and of themselves (excepting Durin) - instead, it's a collection of some members of the other 6 clans that coalesced around Khazad-dum.

With that in mind, I imagine that practically everybody belonging to Durin's Folk had kinship with all other Dwarven clans, which could also imply regular or semi-regular contact. In fact, given how uniform Khuzdul is, I'd say it's all but certain.

All of this is very plausible, but not proven by the text. Is there a source for the 7 Rings to 7 Clans in 7 Mansions connection we all seem to make, or did we just guess that? Neither the Three nor the Nine are evenly spread among their respective peoples - two of the Three are held by heirs of the Noldor, and three of the Nine went to Numenoreans. Several in one house of the Dwarves is entirely possible.

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

There is a letter (Letter 211, p. 279) where Tolkien outright states that Sauron had the Ring with him in Numenor:

Good catch! I've edited that in.

My big question of the day: when did Gandalf find out about Bilbo's Ring? He tells Frodo:

Originally Posted by Shadow of the Past

It was in the year that the White Council drove the Dark Power from Mirkwood, just before the Battle of Five Armies, that Bilbo found his ring. A shadow fell on my heart then, though I did not know yet what I feared. I wondered often how Gollum came by a Great Ring, as plainly it was - that at least was clear from the first. Then I heard Bilbo's strange story of how he "won" it, and I could not believe it.

But I haven't been able to pin down when Gandalf found out. Bilbo revealed his Ring to the Dwarves in Mirkwood, and lied to them about how he got it, after Gandalf had already left. He isn't stated to use it in Gandalf's presence at any point during the remainder of The Hobbit, and given his reluctance to mention it to the Dwarves even at the point of disaster, I'm not convinced he would have just randomly shared it. Certainly Gandalf never mentions it.

Was the "shadow on his heart" after Gandalf heard about the Ring, or when Bilbo found it? I don't think the text is clear, and Gandalf feeling ominous from being in the presence of the One even without realising it is plausible. If the "shadow" came before he knew Bilbo had any ring at all, it's entirely possible that he never heard a thing about it until he read Bilbo's book, during or after his visit with Balin, seven years after Bilbo returned to the Shire.

Or maybe (hopefully!) there's a reference that gives a firm date.

hS

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

All of this is very plausible, but not proven by the text. Is there a source for the 7 Rings to 7 Clans in 7 Mansions connection we all seem to make, or did we just guess that? Neither the Three nor the Nine are evenly spread among their respective peoples - two of the Three are held by heirs of the Noldor, and three of the Nine went to Numenoreans. Several in one house of the Dwarves is entirely possible.

Of course it's speculation - if it weren't everyone and their grandmother would be flooding in with quotes.

However, I take issue with you pointing out the 9 (Men) and the 3 (Elves) in contrast to the 7 - simply put:

1) in regards to the Mannish 9 there really is no equivalent to the Dwarven '7 symbology' - Men are so diverse in their modes of life that there couldn't be an equivalent (unless the number 9 had a special significance in regards to the Awakening of Men or something)

2) in regards to Elves - the original bearer (and maker) of the 3 was Celebrimbor (a Noldo): he then gave the three to Galadriel and Gil-galad (both of them being Noldor) - it was only afterwards that Elrond and Cirdan/Gandalf inherited Vilya and Narya, respectively


Basically, the number 7 is connected to the Dwarves in a way that no other number (except maybe 12 and its square 144 in regards to Elves) is connected to any other race.

[Findegil]

Basically, the number 7 is connected to the Dwarves in a way that no other number (except maybe 12 and its square 144 in regards to Elves) is connected to any other race.

I disagree to this: There are 3 Elves that awake first as there are 7 fathers of the Dwarves. The 3 Elves are the first leaders of the 3 Clans as the 7 fathers of the Dwraves are the first leadres of the 7 Houses.
What more similarity could you wish for?

Even if you argue that the elves soon split into more significant groups (Eldar/Avari), still the split between Nulukizdin and Khazad has some similarity.

So the argument could be used rather the other way around: Since Sauron does know the number of the Rings (and probably influenced it) and is aware of the symbolic connection of the Elves with 3 and the Dwarves with 7, we might assume that there was a similar connection between Men and 9.
Since Sauron could not force his will through with the 3 Rings, he dedicated to the ELves, it is insignificant that they did not found their way into the hands of representatives of the 3 Elven-Clans. And it is rather significant that 3 of the 9 were given into numenorean hands: The Numenoreans were at that time the best representatives of the 3 Edain-Houses.

Under these assumptions we could gues that beside the 3 Edain-Houses we would find in the early history of Men 6 farther Houses. And for one of these 6 farther Houses we could assume a connection to Khamul, the Black Easterling.

Respectfuly
Findegil

P.S.: This does not mean that the Dwarves of Moria could not held more than 1 Dwarven Ring. Even in the choosen group of Thorin's companions not all were members of the House of Durin, so they all were descended from Dwarves of Moria (see the footnote to The Line of the Dwarves of Erebor in Appendix A to LotR. And as already said, the Dwarves of Moria were beside the House of Durin a mixture of all the other houses. So after the sinking of Beleriand and the decline of the Mansions in the Ered Luin, it could well be that the best candidates for Sauron to represent the Firebeards and the Broadbeams in reciving one of the 7 Rings would be found in Moria.

[Snowdog]

This is qute an interesting read! Good work with the thorough researching the Rings Huinesoron!

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Is there a source for the 7 Rings to 7 Clans in 7 Mansions connection we all seem to make, or did we just guess that?

I don't think it's ever stated in the writings; I think it's just a somewhat logical assumption many (most?) make in our head-canon.

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Neither the Three nor the Nine are evenly spread among their respective peoples - two of the Three are held by heirs of the Noldor, and three of the Nine went to Numenoreans. Several in one house of the Dwarves is entirely possible.

In reference to the nine, we also know that one Easterling, Khamûl, had one of the nine and was 2nd in command of the Nazgûl after the Witch King of Angmar. Any guesses who got the other five? I know this is reaching into the realm of fan-cic, but it is fun and interesting to speculate.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Snowdog

This is qute an interesting read! Good work with the thorough researching the Rings Huinesoron!

Thank you.

Originally Posted by Snowdog

In reference to the nine, we also know that one Easterling, Khamûl, had one of the nine and was 2nd in command of the Nazgûl after the Witch King of Angmar. Any guesses who got the other five? I know this is reaching into the realm of fan-cic, but it is fun and interesting to speculate.

Okay, let's have a play.

The speculation so far is that the three Numenoreans represented the three Houses of the Edain. We know from Aldarion and Erendis that the Beorians retained a separate racial identity for at least 800 years after Numenor was founded, so it's not impossible.

I would guess that the Hadorian Nazgul is someone close to the royal house of Numenor. Tar-Telperiën the long-lived is my usual guess, but if you want another named character, her brother Isilmo is a good bet: embittered by his sister's claim on the sceptre that "should be his". This is probably the Witch-King(/Queen).

The Beorian Nazgul is an interesting one: based on Aldarion and Erendis, the Beorians are known to have lived in the west of Numenor - but the lords of that region were Hadorians, the heirs of Silmarien. At least, the lords of Andunie were - could the Beorian be a lord or princeling of Eldalonde, the other elf-haven of Numenor? In A & E, the elven-birds are said to have flown westwards from Erendis' house in Mittalmar to her parents' home, which suggests they lived some ways south of Andunie.

As for the Haladin Nazgul, there's not really anything to go on. The Haladin were basically wiped out (there's a statement that their tongue wasn't spoken in later years), but we can imagine one of the 'arms' of Numenor had a Haladin descendent population. If Sauron had already picked up a King's Man and a Faithful (to use the later terminology), perhaps the third was from Hyarrostar - the forests that built Numenor's fleets, and a likely place for the heirs of the Woodsmen of Brethil to live.

Moving back to Middle-earth, is it too much to assume 3 Nazgul from the west, 3 from the east? We know of peoples related to the Haladin (the Dunlendings, Bree-men, Oathbreakers, and all the rest of the pre-Numenoreans) and the Hadorians (the Northmen/future Rohirrim). Could there be a "pre-Beorian" presence somewhere to round out the set? I wonder about Dale - the Northmen there seem to have a different mode of living to the Rohirrim, and are said to have come up from the south. Was there a "pre-Beorian" splinter group living near the Sea of Rhun - perhaps even the mysterious Dorwinion?

If we've come this far, we might as well finish: the three eastern Nazgul also represented the three houses of Men. We know so little of the East, but there are two named "kingdoms" - Rhun and Khand (where the Variags live). There are also the Wainriders of the Third Age, who came from further east and allied with the Variags.

Khamul is "the Easterling", so he may be from the furthest east - he's the Wainrider Nazgul. I would place him as the Hadorian - the Wainriders are mobile like the Rohirrim, and as the largest of the houses would presumably have stayed closer to their origin.

Of the other two, the Rhunish Nazgul is the "Beorian". We know the Beorians were a splinter of Hador; if that split happened around Rhun, then the Rhun and Dorwinion groups could have actually been the same people initially. They would have split later, into eastern and western parties, but it's possible the Rhun and Dorwinion Nazgul had some contact even before Sauron came to them.

And then there's the Variag Nazgul, who's the Haladin on no more basis than that the Haladin-related peoples tend to live further south. The Haradrim, Druedain, and Hobbits all get left out of the ring-giving party for various reasons (the Druedain are too sensible, the Hobbits too secretive, and I dunno, maybe Sauron was just racist).

Parsing that all across to the real world map, and looking back to the post-Roman era because it lets me say "Goth":

- One European Celt (pre-Numenorean).
- One Goth (Northman).
- One Vandal (Dorwinion).
- One Rus' (Rhun).
- One Persian (Khand).
- One Hun (Wainrider, Khamul).
- ... and three from lands that don't exist. You can call them Irish (Hadorian), Welsh (Haladin), and Scottish (Beorian) Celts if you want.

hS